Thanks to gupwalla from The Fuselage for compiling the following little snippet that were on "The Man Behind the Curtain" DVD Commentary.
* Horace Goodspeed and Olivia are important to the DHARMA story, and we can expect to see more of them in the future.
* Richard Alpert was conceived as the "Panchen Lama" of the Others. (That would make Ben the "Dalai Lama.") Alpert's role is to pick the next Dalai. Ben's role would be to pick the next Panchen, should the need arise. This keeps the two in a sort of balanced power relationship. They are allies, yet they have some measure of control over the other should one get out of hand.
* Ben uses the volcanic ash circle to contain Jacob. Jacob also has the means to control Ben to an extent.
* Speaking of volcanoes, there is one on the island. Damon says it will be of "seismic importance" (pun very much intended.)
* The Looking Glass Station is a communications station. Its role is to emit the ping that guides the submarine to the island.
* The DHARMA purge was not the first purge by the Others. There have been many groups on the island, and the Others have purged many times before. Remnants of all the groups make up the Others we see today. Damon likens this to the United States, which is a nation of immigrants from many cultures who have assimilated into a common culture.
* Ben set Locke up to kill Cooper as a test...he was certain Locke would fail as he has not shown himself to be capable of murder. There is probably no great mythological reason for killing one's father; Alpert helps Locke find a way to kill Cooper because it is the only way to break Ben's manipulation.
* Damon suggests that Ben's penchant for numbering his rabbits "probably has something to do with fertility experiments."
* Room 23 is located on the Hydra island, which is designated for zoological experiments. Has it only been used on humans, or was it previously used on other animals? And if so, what animals? (Calling all Joop fans!)
* Annie is an extremely important part of the island's backstory, and it is a planned chapter to come. Annie is more important than the Goodspeeds or the volcano.
* The mechanism for the purge at the Barracks was different from the mechanism Ben uses in the van (the canister of gas). The gas canister was added in post-production to give Ben a more active role in his father's death. But the original plan was for something to happen more or less island wide at 4 PM.
* We have not seen Ben's motivation for his role in the purge, but we will.
Source: Season 3 DVD
The Man Behind the Curtain Commentary spoilers
(Comments: 22)
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22 Comments:
It's funny what you hear when you listen to these. I got most of what gupwalla mentions from the commentary, but I thought the biggest thing was that Damon especially admitted that Ben would be proven correct about the boat people. Ben also would have more credulity this season because of that and the fact he didn't kill Sayid, Bernard and Jin. Carlton was the one to jump in with the disclaimer saying it "might" play out that way.
This was a good commentary. The other three had zero spoiler info. That being said, Damon and Elizabeth Mitchell were very funny on their "Tale of Two Cities" commentary.
J
holy smoke! i haven't heard the commentary yet but this is chock full of great ,really interesting stuff!
Wow. Great stuff here.
That 'mechanism' that killed DHARMA back at the barracks, I think, was that Richard's Others turned those electric posts up to full level, which gave everyone within the posts' circle a hemorrhage.
I don't think it could be so big as to set off the volcano or anything. I assumed it was the electric pylons in the first place - never even thought that the other DHARMA people were killed by gas.
I CANNOT WAIT TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE GOT PLANNED! :D SOUNDS SOOOOO GOOD!!!!!
I CANNOT WAIT TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE GOT PLANNED! :D SOUNDS SOOOOO GOOD!!!!!
"It's funny what you hear when you listen to these. I got most of what gupwalla mentions from the commentary..."
I agree freckles it's funny how different people can hear different things when listening to the same commentary. I've listen to this commentary at least 30 times and not heard some of the things Gupwalla heard. A few of the things on his list are conclusions he made and not something said by Darlton. Nothing was mentioned about room 23 in this commentary either.
One of the most interesting tidbits was that Michael Emerson composed the contents of Ben's journal and not the writers.
The writers always meant Henry Gale to be the leader of the Others. So Emerson's guest spot was a sort of audition to see if he fit the role and to see what he could do with it. I found their description of how they "reverse engineer" characters very interesting.
"Dharma purge was not the first purge..."
and
"We have not seen Ben's motivation for his role on the purge but we will."
Maybe the first purge involves an important death to Ben:
ANNIE, maybe she was purged. That's is Ben's motivation, I think.
Annie is an extremely important part of the island's backstory, and it is a planned chapter to come. Annie is more important than the Goodspeeds or the volcano.
Ben & Richard; should the need arise. This keeps the two in a sort of balanced power relationship.
Jacob also has the means to control Ben to an extent.
All cool stuff.
It's worth pointing out that the OP over at the 'lage said "most" of these were from the "Curtain" commentary...but not all of them. The OP covers all of the commentaries and bonus features, it's just that "Curtain" had the most spoiler info. (I remember that the Looking Glass tidbit came from one of the bonus docs, for example.)
Funny bit from EM: she called the Barracks "Stepford Summer Camp." :)
Some of these items are unexpected and interesting.
The bit about Richard and Ben being complementary figures who appoint each other's replacements is especially interesting. Was Ben hoping to groom Walt as an eventual replacement for Richard? Is Richard hoping to replace Ben with Locke? And if Ben had a predecessor who appointed Richard, then who was it, and what happened to him/her?
That the Others are a collection of survivors from various 'purges' over the years makes perfect sense. Since we know they can't have children, the only way they could perpetuate their society is if they're constantly absorbing new people from the various groups that come to the island. That's probably why Richard doesn't care about the fertility problems--because he thinks the Others should continue to rely on the island to bring them 'new blood' whenever they need it.
Perhaps Annie was pregnant with Ben's child, but she was the first to experience the problems with pregnancies on the island, which explains why Ben is working so hard to solve the problem.
This made me have an epiphany - and even if it's wrong, I hope that the writers have the same epiphany, because that would make the story so awesome:
timmythegreek said: "The bit about Richard and Ben being complementary figures who appoint each other's replacements is especially interesting. Was Ben hoping to groom Walt as an eventual replacement for Richard? Is Richard hoping to replace Ben with Locke? And if Ben had a predecessor who appointed Richard, then who was it, and what happened to him/her?"
JACOB!
The lineage went:
Jacob -> Richard -> Ben
But then Ben became a bit renegade and turned people on each other, so Richard kinda regretted his choice. The lineage became split when Richard started 'grooming' Locke by helping him defeat Ben in The Brig.
Jacob -> Richard -> Ben
Jacob -> Richard -> Locke
Ben knew that Richard wanted Locke to take his place next, so Ben, too, needed an apprentice. He tried to take Walt but that backfired (he had to let Michael leave), so next he tried Karl (brainwashing in Room 23) but that backfired (the brainwashing was interrupted), but that went wrong, so he settled on trying to get Jack on his side.
So I don't think it is that Ben and Richard help each other choose two new leaders, but a subtle battle to groom the 'next Jacob' so their own side 'wins' control of the Others.
Very interesting posts Andrew & timmythegreek about Richard & Ben. I think when Jacob is finally set free, probably by Locke with a little help from Richard; Jacob will seek revenge on Ben for keeping him inprisoned in that dark creepy cabin, surrounded by a trail of ash. When Locke does this, he will become the NEW leader of the Others.
Petor23
What u said about Annie & Ben was interesting too. I can see that happening in Ben's next flashback. Annie died from giving birth & then their child died shortly after. Explaining why Ben wants children so much.
I always thought the Goodspeeds were remarkably similair to the DeGroots in many respects -
We have Horace/Gerald the mathematician (who also would look a lot like each other with the beard I'm guessing)
And Olivia/Karen the teacher (both blonde etc)
I think that this is more than a coincidence, but I'm not sure what the connection would be just yet....
I think that this is more than a coincidence, but I'm not sure what the connection would be just yet....
My theory has always been that they are indeed Gerald and Karen, and that the people we see in the orientation films are just actors playing them, to cover their identities on the Island, so they could work there incognito.
The extension of this theory is that we don't see Karen/Olivia die, so she could still be alive somewhere, whether on the Island or off. It also partly explains why Ben took special care with Horace/Gerald's body after the Purge. Not only was he a nice man to him as a child, but Ben recognized that he was a "great" man, even if their causes led them to conflict, with Horace/Gerald on the losing side.
Just a couple of other points/spoilers from the commentary to "The Man Behind the Curtain" that I don't think were mentioned here.
1. TPTB confirmed that the "eye" we saw in the cabin scene WAS Jacob's eye. Note: They also pointed out that they added the eye scene in specifically so the viewers would have no doubt that Jacob WAS in the chair when Ben was talking to him (but they joked that the viewers obviously "didn't get it" because the fan boards went crazy with speculation as to WHOSE eye it was).
2. There is a sort of "check and balance" system of power.
-Jacob can control Ben to some extent and Ben can control Jacob to some extent (e.g. such as Ben using the "volcanic ash circle" to keep Jacob confined, as confirmed by TPTB in the commentary).
-Ben and Richard keep each other in "check" by having the power to pick/veto each other's replacement on the Island.
And, lastly, 1 additional observation I had from watching the commentary to the S3 premiere ("A Tale of Two Cities").
-After Sawyer got the fish biscuit Tom (Mr. Frioendly) said "it only took the bears 2 hours". Presumably, this is something he would have only known if he was part of the Dharma Initiative doing the studies (especially when you consider how cocky and smug he was when he said it). Plus, maybe this explains why he has a position of such authority in the hierarchy on the Island.
The only other way he could have known this was by reading/analyzing the data collected by the Dharma Initiative (but that seems much less likely)
I think that if the TPTB are serious about drawing the analogy of the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama, then there is no single line of succession going from Jacob to Richard to Ben, but two seperate lines of succession with Jacob standing above and outside of both.
IMHO, if Ben and Richard are analagous to the Lamas, then Jacob is analagous to the Buddha. Jacob, like the Buddha, stays removed from worldly activities, while a succession of chief followers--a right-hand man (Ben and his predecessors) and 'left-hand man' (Richard and his predecessors) lead the community of faithful. When either of the two chief followers dies, the surviving one seeks a replacement to fill the vacant office. This ensures that, unless both of the chief followers die at once, the community will never be completely leaderless.
I'm going to theorize that when Richard and Ben first met, Ben's predecessor had recently died fighting against DHARMA (or was close to death for some reason or another), and someone or something (Jacob?) sent Ben a vision of his mother precisely because the time had come to start grooming a new leader. Richard recognized Ben's vision as a sign that Ben was the 'Chosen One.'
It seems as though Ben and Richard, due to a philosophical disagreement, are each hoping to replace the other with one of the 'special' people from Flight 815. Ben chose Walt as his protege but failed to hold onto him. Is it possible that Richard played a role in engineering Walt's return to Michael precisely because he knew of Ben's plans for the boy?
This also would explain why the Others didn't take Jack, Kate, and Sawyer when they first had the chance--Locke was with them at the time, and Ben was afraid of bringing Locke into contact with his people and especially with Richard.
So are Locke and Walt destined to be the new 'Dalai' and 'Panchen' of the Others? Seems that way, unless Aaron is also somehow a factor in all this.
Yeah, I think Mr. Friendly was one of the Dharma people who were "smart enough" not to end up in that pit. If you told me that guy was a polar bear handler, I would believe you.
And I don't know where, but I believe I remember reading that Aaron would be important to the ending of the show, so maybe he's a Lama lad as well.
I'd also like to add that though it seems too obvious now, Annie may have died in childbirth like 16 years ago, and Ben stole Danielle's newborn around the time of his own child's death, out of grief. He may even have told those outside his circle that the baby had survived, and raised Alex as his. Kind of sweet,and twisted.
timmythegreek:
I understood what you said about taking the Lama lineage and putting that exact same thing on Lost, but I looked at it another way, using your ideas to springboard.
I saw it as a direct, monarchial lineage from Jacob then Richard then Ben. And when Ben started getting out of hand, that's when the line became split and they became almost equal in power, each finding new replacements instead of a single one, against what is probably best for the island.
Jacob himself knew that despite there currently being a Lama-like relationship between Richard and Ben, there SHOULD be a direct lineage, so asked Locke to help defeat Ben so that only Locke would be the one in power after Richard died, returning the lineage to a single, linear line.