Thanks to Claudio for the heads up.
While Lost exec producers Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse confirm that death becomes her (“The decision to kill Juliet was absolutely brutal,” says Lindelof), they note that she’s scheduled to appear in multiple episodes this season (“There’s still something very significant that we have not yet learned about the character,” hints Cuse).
LINDELOF: “Juliet basically birthed season 6 by the actions that she takes in the final seconds of season 5. She is completely responsible for the end game of the show. So the character is going to be seen in a slightly different light this year. We gave her that action for a reason, and that’s because she’s so important to the fabric of the story.”
On later being asked to return in season 6:
MITCHELL: “The only thing I could think of was that she gets to beat the c-r-a-p out of Ben [laughs]…. I was like, ‘I think I’m going to be really busy. But I’m so in love with this character, it’s not like you have to twist my arm. So, thank you.’ It was just a complete rollercoaster of [emotions], though, because I had already said goodbye.”
On what we should expect when we see Juliet again:
MITCHELL: “It’s probably exactly what you expect, but because it’s Damon and Carlton, you know they’re just going to turn it on its ear.”
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Source: Popwatch
Elizabeth Mitchell Article
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105 Comments:
Has anybody thought to mention that maybe the reason Juliet was brought to the island for her "work" with pregnant women was, in fact, because she herself caused the Incident which resulted in pregnant women dying on the island in the first place?
Just throwin' that out there. Sorry if I blew anybody's mind just now...
Good thinking Matthew -
The other thing with Juliet that has always puzzled me, is her agenda. I mean, for the past 2 seasons we all came to trust her, but she always does throw some odd comments out there regarding her involvement with the others (ie to Sayid - "If you knew everything about me, you'd kill me") and remarks like that. There was a lot of suspicious behaviour and something a little sinister about her in season 3, and we've all cunningly been led to forget about that, or presume it has been resolved, but it really hasn't....I still think there's something more about her character that'll change our opinion of her....
IIIIIIIIIII KNEW IT!!!
I knew there was more to that woman we still haven't learned. She KNOWS something about smokey! She KNOWS more about the Others than she's previously let on.
This is great news they're going to reveal this stuff to us!
I know what nobody else knows about Juliet...
She's still a double-agent loyal to the Others.
Could you imagine that?
She is Smokey!!!
See, I've been under the quiet assumption that Jacob would assume the body/form of Caesar, given that Caesar's role was a bit of a letdown, for such a well known actor. Now I'm thinking that maybe Jacob will take Juliet's form. That would be a twist for the books.
Remember when Kate and Juliet were handcuffed to each other in the jungle and they were chased by the Smoke Monster? They hid in that tree and the smoke monster "scanned" Juliet's face - there were 3 white flashes on her and then it left. She didn't say anything about it.
Also - I think the fact that she fell in love with Sawyer was interesting - they don't seem like two people that would get along really - but if she has some secrets or is a good liar like he is, maybe she found him to be a good match for her.
Another interesting thing is when she was little and her parents were getting a divorce, the room and the clothes, styles, everything looked to be modern - not like it was in the 60's or early 70's.
AND - when Juliet changed her mind about Jack blowing up the bomb, she said to Sawyer "..if I never meet you, I never have to lose you." Why does she think she will lose him? Does she know of something specific that will happen? She said she knows he would stay with her forever. Maybe it is just because her parents divorced and she thought that would happen to them eventually.
I am glad they are finally confirming Juliet is dead, although I always assumed it. This is the exit interview, at long last.
@Alex
Why does she think she will lose him?
She says it very clearly that she thinks she will lose him because he knows he loves Kate. That was kind of the whole point.
Also I think she would have been born around 1970 so the divorce scene would have been 1980 or so. Nothing unusual about it.
I hope her cameos tell us something actually cool about her. She used to be such a mysterious character in season 3. I wish they could have used her potential better.
Juliet will return in Obi-Wan like fashion.
"Jack you will go to the Dagobah System... er, The Temple! There you will learn from Dogen, an ancient Island master!"
"Use the force... to fix things Jack."
She is Smokey the incident Blew her into a cloud of black smoke but since nobody "Dies" on the island she took the form of the smoke, what she saw in the flashes of Smokey in season 3 were her becoming Smokey, notice that in the scene that someone asks her if she knows what that is, she lies that she doesn't know what it is, but just repeats what someone else told her "It's a security system" but she knows way more about Smokey then she lets on, I don't know how this would be possible, and I don't know if it is even a good idea but I wouldn't put it past them to do this, they did say “There’s still something very significant that we have not yet learned about the character,”, and "So the character is going to be seen in a slightly different light this year. We gave her that action for a reason, and that’s because she’s so important to the fabric of the story."
What else is so important to the fabric of the story than Smokey, IDK just throwin it out there, it doesn't seem feasible but it does seems plausible.
It's just good to hear that Juliet will show up in an another important way and not just only to give some closure to Sawyer. Not that closure with Sawyer isn't very important, but like they said she will need to reconcile her action to detonate the Jughead. I agree with Matthew, she caused the thing she was later brought to the Island to fix.
The '77 event was before Richard knew she was an Other, so it does shed some light on his later eagerness to recruit her. Richard was instructed that Juliet must come to the Island. Also it shows why the bus hit her husband; the Island demanded she "return" and be a part of fixing the damage she caused.
This is no different than the O6 being called back to complete their "work" on the Island.
@Ricky - watch "the incident" and watch "how" Juliet is pulled into the hatch...and listen to the mechanical chain sounds too...
coincidence?
I love LOST and these guys, but it's contradictions like this that get me really angry:
MITCHELL: [In a phone call right before the end of season 5, Lindelof and Cuse] said they didn’t have any story left to tell, and they didn’t think there was anything left for her to do…
CUSE: “There’s still something very significant that we have not yet learned about the character,” hints Cuse.
Oh?? Really? REALLY?
Oy, I mean I know what spin is, but come on. I think you killed her off, found out the fans LOVED her and Sawyer, and you got caught with your pants down because you are making episodes months ahead and not getting any fan feedback like you used to in the first few years. Nikki and Paulo would be regulars now if they had appeared in season 4 instead of 2. (3?)
I loved EM, and you had better make it right for all of us.
What about the pictures of Anubis with smokey in the temple.... Doesn't that mean smokey excists way before the 70's? And can't be Juliet
Oh I love Juliet. Im so happy that she will be back.
I agree that Juliet caused what she was brought here to fix.
It could be a reincarnation thing. Being brought to the island to work on fertility problems would be something that would allow island reincarnation to occur again. Similarly, preventing an incident of massive energy release, which may have been what started the fertility problem in the first place, is another thing that she could have solved the problem. If reincarnation is fundamental to the fabric of Lost, it would be consistent with Lindelof's comment that she is a key player in both possible solutions.
@ tds301
You might be right. I do think the decision to bring back Juliet was mainly based on the great reaction from the audience towards the Sawyer/Juliet pairing. The fact that EM said that she received the call from the producers right after the airing of "Lafleur" says it all.
Although this article does confirm to me my suspicion that Juliet's return is going to be pivotal to the storyline and not just for the romance side and that's good news. Juliet has always been my favorite female character on the show and when Suliet happened it was just great! Knowing that she'll be back into action again is awesome. Can't wait for her encounter with Ben:-)
Note that Mitchell has said she'll be in Hawaii to film Lost from November 14th to January 19th.
While I'm sure there's some holiday vacation time in there, it certainly sounds like she's going to have time to film a significant number of episodes
Juliet gets to choose, but will Jacob get his wings?
given this article i would recommend anybody who hasn't read Bigmouth's theory on Juliet and "it's a wonderful lost" to do so now. I am not saying I agree with it but Big's theories are always an interesting read and now look's more than possible.
http://eyemsick.blogspot.com/
Note that Mitchell has said she'll be in Hawaii to film Lost from November 14th to January 19th.
That info isn't in the EW article. It's from the scifiwire article, which also seems to say that she's filming V AND a movie between now and Nov.14. Not trustworthy info.
EM's going to have a very little bit to do next year on Lost. That's why they gave her an exit interview now, so it won't be part of the pre season promotion.
I for one am glad they aren't letting online fans write their show for them. I think those who cling to the thought of them rewriting the ending they planned for YEARS to satisfy the transient wishes of online shippers are doomed for disappointment. You think people would learn by now.
Also, with all due respect to mister Lindelof, Juliet is not the reason for season 6. Daniel Faraday would have to take that honor seeing how it was his plan and that group would not have been anywhere near the Swan site without Daniel's manipulations. Come on Damon, are you a little star struck from staring at EM's bosom for too long.
Ricky
Smokey=Juliet???
I hope you are joking!
read big's theory.
@Ricky
I posted a long comment in the Ausiello mystery poll thread a few days ago about the purpose of the Island being a higher form of intelligence's attempt at creating paradise. I think the Monster is a reaction to human treachery from the Island. It's not that humans invented the Monster, but more specifically they neglect their true, greater purpose and allow the Monster to exist by default.
So far Smokey has interrogated, coerced, and murdered. It is a military/law enforcement agent of the Island. The only way to defeat it, is how you would rid society of the need for military or law enforcement; eliminate malevolence. This can't be done by coercion. No desire to kill means no weapons are necessary to do so.
The DI mission statement, and Mr Eko's Book of Laws parable both allude to an intent to create a utopian-like peaceful society; paradise. Tropical beaches, hidden away from the world so that no one can take it away, energy that allows for limitless possibilities if used in a constructive rather than destructive way, "a place where miracles happen" all point to the Island being paradise.
I think the Egyptian judgement room was built because they realized their society was collapsing and rationalized that praying to the Gods and worship would be the only way to save it. They were describing that their nature of evil ways had given birth to this entity. If the Monster killed you when you came to be judged then it was because you hadn't discovered the error of your ways, weren't repentant and therefor had no place in paradise. Survival didn't mean you are clean of sin, but that you still have the potential to become useful in paradise. The Island chooses sinners to become repentant and be in paradise. Not in a strictly Judeo-Christian sense of specifically following Jesus, but in the sense that true paradise is the absence of any destructive, limiting attitude.
“As the story is now nearing its conclusion, some characters just aren’t going make it all the way to the end. Even beloved characters aren’t going make it all the way to the end. And sometimes we have to do things that are really painful, like killing Juliet, because that’s what makes the story feel like the stakes are genuine, and people feel invested that characters who are beloved can actually perish on our show.
That is from Cuse in the interview about EM. They are going to get very King on us in season 6 which I think is great, but the Lost boards are going to be raging next spring when they start killing people off.
@ Neo:
Yeah I'm sorta Joking but I wouldn't put it past them!!
It's not totally impossible is it?
Locke's Disciple
No paradise. Too idealistic.
The Island is a inter-dimensional nexus, similar to the Dark Tower, that does not exist in time or 3d space. The magic box. this why character's on the show are able to project their thoughts into form on the Island. The Island jumps between universes, but never stays in one spot. it also functions as the key stone. if something was to destroy or control the island it would be as if you controlled or destroyed the infinite. Smokey is not man made, so to speak, but came from a different universe altogether.
Also, in this context, and I am stealing from another lost theorist, jacob and mib are 4th dimensional beings. Who came to the Island to play a game of chess over humanity. given there existence in 3d space their power would almost be infinite and time and space would have no relevance to them. In other words, they could easily jump back and forth at any given "time" in any of the characters past or future. This would also raise the distinct possibility that jacob is not dead but need another body, "candidate", to inhabit.
Ricky
I just think it is very unlikely, and a little contrived. No offense, I do like your theories.
@Yoyomaira
Not trustworthy info indeed! "V" is officially filming until January 30th 2010.
V is gonna be on hiatus from November 3rd until January 2010 at least.
lol that whole thing about her launching the endgame for season 6 was exactly what they said about Faraday after they killed him off :/
neoloki,
You described paradise. I said humans neglect their greater purpose and therefore allow the Monster to exist by default. I agree they did NOT invent it, their exploitable weaknesses and destructive malevolent tendencies allow it to prosper and prevent them from experiencing what true paradise has to offer; the infinite. The Egyptian society deemed themselves unworthy of the blessings of the Gods due to the fact that a black column of smoke can take the appearance of any memory or image in their mind and coerce them. Their fears manifest as coming true.
I like what you said about the Island being an inter-dimensional nexus which, if destroyed would destroy the infinite. A keystone. THAT'S A PARADISE where if you continue your malevolent behavior you will only add to the destruction of everything else in existence.
Why the need to protect the Island? Because, as you said it would destroy or control everything else. It's the need for armed security for the President. Because there are those that want to kill or harm or control him/the office which in turn would destroy or control everything else.
@ Locke's Disciple:
I like your theory, it is good writing even if it isn't what TPTB end up revealing about the Island.
To add to what you are saying, I could see the end of LOST being just 1 man on the Island (Locke?), everyone else - gone or dead. If there is just 1 person, then there is no conflict, no need for Smokey. It is kind of ironic really.. You want a Utopian society? Then it will have to be just 1 person. MIB and Jacob showed that even if there are only 2 people (speculatively) then there will still be conflict, war.
Remember - Hurley was reading a comic book "The Last Man" (it was in Spanish). This could have been foreshadowing the end, although when I thought of that the first time I was thinking it would just be Desmond forever pushing the button, undisturbed in the Swan Station for the rest of his life.
I have a very basic problem with the idea of Paradise, and to me the show seems to echo my sentiment.
You can't have all of one thing without necessitating it's opposite. Happy/sad, paradise/hell. Through this conflict we enable progress and conflict is the goal because if we attained "paradise" we would be in a state of stagnation. Here, maybe, is where the idea of a loop will play a part in Lost as Jacob has alluded to.
I think we probably agree on the method but are quibbling over the definition of "paradise".
In "Left Behind" Juliet tells Kate that her arm had been dislocated four times prior to Kate's dislocating it. I've always wanted an explanation of that statement.
"On what we should expect when we see Juliet again:
MITCHELL: “It’s probably exactly what you expect, but because it’s Damon and Carlton, you know they’re just going to turn it on its ear.”"
What does she mean? I expected her to be dead - and to be written out of the show. To what does she refer with that sentence?
@Locke's disciple: I believe you got it! (See my comment in the Ausiello-post).
@Neoloki: I think you are exactly right, but it only makes Locke's disciple's idea about what Lost deals with essentially more reasonable. We can't live in a paradise, obviously, because we are human, but there will always be the need to try nevertheless. One of the greatest conflicts of mankind ever, at least mirrored in one story of that kind in every culture on earth, I think. Communism only the most recent, but starting with Gilgamesh and his search for immortality and the great utopian city he builds (and of course he fails!). Paradise is the end of all things, without struggle and conflict, therefore it is even a metaphor for death in some weird kind of paradox (Tolkien uses this ambiguous image very explicitly in the Lord of the Rings, for example, for both death and eternal life). And those who try to create paradise will always fail due to this exact paradox - at least when it comes down to humans. Biblical angels in paradise/heaven, Tolkien's elves in Eldamar: They all don't care much for action and are satisfied easily with just existing blissfully - but all those humans to which the gifts of immortality were given (for a try, it seems) were bored to death, had silly ideas of what they could do in the meantime, failed spectacularly and were immediately sacked.
Small wonder the heavenly part of the Divine Comedy is deathly boring (at least to me), while all the dire descriptions before we get there are quite fun.
i initially viewed the island as a type of atlantis and I guess this can be construed as "paradise". but given the similarities with the island to atlantis, e.g., volcano, vanishing, the pillar of Hercules, it's importance to egyptian priests, it's use in the marvel universe (being encased in a glass dome), etc, al. i believe TPTB were more specifically looking in this direction rather than the general idea of "paradise".
@Hamburgo1001
I have access to one of the top canadian magazines for the films/TV industry and in it, is included the production listings of all the projects that are shooting coast to coast in Canada and it clearly states that "V" is shooting until January 30th.
There's always something hidden about Juliet. The minor things that catch my attention are when Locke and Sawyer are talking with Widmore on his knees and Locke is about to say that Ethan shot him in the leg and Juliet cuts him off saying it doesn't matter. She always seems to do stuff like that.
neoloki said...
"I think we probably agree on the method but are quibbling over the definition of "paradise".
Well put. That's funny I was just going to say we are getting into semantics!! Great minds think alike, eh?
The only reason I'm not crazy mad about the creators totally screwed up her story by killing her before time is because I know she'll be back on the show someway.
And while I can't really see how her being really dead will matter in terms of her character resolution I'll put some faith on Darlton.
But believe me, this could ruin the final season for me.
Whatever it is, I hope is something that does her character justice and not simply a joke 'a la Michael'. Wish I could believe it, but I'm always skeptical about what Darlton say, and it is because they change their discourse every 5 minutes... you know, like they are making things up as they go. I mean, Juliet was really toast, EM said cried and said goodbye. Then, they called her back after LaFleur... that's what EM said, isn't? Now, she's supposedly very important to "the fabric of the story". Are they joking?
Seriously, they come as cruel :/
I have access to one of the top canadian magazines for the films/TV industry and in it, is included the production listings of all the projects that are shooting coast to coast in Canada and it clearly states that "V" is shooting until January 30th.
Your info is outdated then. The original wrap date for V was indeed January 30, but the latest production chart that was posted on the internet 2 days ago clearly says that November 3rd will be the final day of shooting for now. They will go on hiatus and then start up production again in early January. This was also reported by Cinemaspy in late September.
What they do with Juliet's character will not make season 6 good or bad. However, I am fairly convinced the more interviews i read with Damon and Carlton in their earnestness to give the story it's proper answers and give the die hard fan base some satisfaction. That being said, not everyone will be satisfied or happy with their approach, but given my love of the first 5 seasons, with the appropriate suspension of disbelief due a network television series, I believe I will respect the story to be told.
According to her imdb profile Liz will be in a movie called 'Answers to Nothing' which could so easily be the title of a Lost clip show! The promise of multiple episodes is better than nothing.Maybe we'll see some more of James and Juliet. My heart broke for them both when she had to let go of his hand.I have to keep reminding myself this is just tv.
I noticed a thing that COULD mean something. This article claims that EM will very soon head to LA to shoot for a movie. If you remember the October 26 article about Titus Welliver, it said that he was scheduled to shoot some scenes in LA for Lost "in a couple of weeks", which means about the same time as EM will be in LA for that film ("Answers to Nothing"?). Since we haven't heard (I think) of any actor who have been booked up to act against Titus, could this mean that Titus and EM will shoot some (ultrasecret) scenes together? It's not impossible that ABC would book something up, but the secrecy for that would be on a level of 11 out of 10. It would have to be top secret - Titus acting against anyone in this show would be a huge reveal since so little is known about his character. That doesn't mean she isn't going to do that movie, just that ABC might take advantage of her being around.
@Hamburgo1001
The original date was ACTUALLY January 14th (even Dark had it on his site during the summer) and than,because of all the delays, got switched to January 30th. The magazine is pretty thorough about these things and make ajustments accordingly. So there you have it!
I really don't feel like starting anything here especially about something as small as filming info about another show. Let's face it,at the end of the day, who cares when the filming ends! EM said that the return of Juliet will not be influenced by the success or failure of "V". For me, as long as we get to see this great character in action is really what counts.
Please don't bring her back for more quadrangle drama. Let that die with the finale.
There's so much more to this character, so many possibilities. Explore that instead.
And a showdown between her and Ben? Yes please!
I'm curious as to what her role will be considering she's dead in one timeline.
Well, this articles gives me renewed hope in season 6. I would love to see Juliet playing with her nephew and meeting Sawyer in the "real" timeline and confronting Ben in the "alt" island timeline! I would buy all 6 seasons of DVDs just to see her kick Ben's butt in the last season:)
The original date was ACTUALLY January 14th (even Dark had it on his site during the summer) and than,because of all the delays, got switched to January 30th. The magazine is pretty thorough about these things and make ajustments accordingly. So there you have it!
And that date was also still correct until 3 days ago. They have officially changed their wrap date to November 3rd, 2009 on October 29 but the rumours were already out there since late September. Here's a link to their latest production chart: http://s769.photobucket.com/albums/xx333/EMFC/?action=view¤t=vproductionoct31.jpg
I would honestly love to see V shoot 9 episodes within 4 weeks. I can tell you that. LOL
Let's face it,at the end of the day, who cares when the filming ends! EM said that the return of Juliet will not be influenced by the success or failure of "V". For me, as long as we get to see this great character in action is really what counts.
That's certainly true.
Best news ever! I love Juliet with all my heart. What if the things we still don't know about her is that she was actually touched by Jacob? And Elizabeth saying that it's pretty much what we are expecting makes me confident about Sawyer and Juliet, because i love them and i can't wait for a reunion. I think of all couples, they deserve the happy ending the most. Please more JULIET!
JULIET IS RESPONSIBLE FOR BABIES THAT ARE CONCEIVED ON ISLAND, CANT BE BORN.
IM SURE SHE WAS PREGNANT IN 1970 BY SAWYER AND SHE DIED SO HER TIME TRAVELING AND DYING IS THE RESULT IN BABIES CANT BE BORN THERE.
WE SAW ETHAN GET BORN, AMY GOT PREGNANT ON THE ISLAND.
JULIET DIES AND BABIES CANT BE BORN.
THAT IS WHAT IS SO SPECIAL ABOUT HER.
@Yoyomaira: Honey, as if the ending they planned for years is Skate and 100% of it is set in the stone. Your online shipper transient wishes are probably the same as the Sulieters, the difference is that there's a lot of hype (well deserved, btw) for Suliet and hate for Skate. I wonder who has real transient wishes, because pairing Sawyer and Kate again at this point would not only be such fail, because everyone wants Suliet together, but also from a character POV, it would seem forced and unbelievable, since Kate is all about Jack and Sawyer realized that Juliet was his true love from the moment she fell down, or maybe when he said GOOD RIDDANCE to Kate, the island and everyone in there :).
BUT HOW? BAMA! YOU STLL DIDN'T ANSWER HOW! TIME TRAVEL AND PREGNANCY DON"T MAKE AN ANSWER!
WHY ARE WE YELLING!!
Yes, why would detonating an H-bomb stop babies from being born for at least 30 years? If it is some kind of radiation mixed with the electromagnetic leak then how come this only prevents pregnancy and not poison everyone else on the Island?
I think she's only back because she got the part on V, actually, so ABC told the Lost producers to have her back. What can I say, I'm cynical.
I don't think Juliet should want to kick the crap out of Ben anymore. She knew him as a child, tried to save his life, and she was the one who suggested that he be sent to the Others - which resulted in him becoming an Other, which she must have realized would happen. I would think she'd be beyond that, by now.
If you time travel.. remember miles saying, this is there past. but this is our present. your maniac Iraqi buddy shot Linus, that is what always happened.
so when it was the 1970's the losties were always there.
so if you time travel back to the past, and juliet would only be a kid in the 70's, and she gets pregnant by sawyer and dies.
what happened to that baby that should of never existed? that baby died along with juliet. so time traveling and dying while be pregnant could of started what is the cause of babies no being born.
if you were a kid in the 70's, and then when you grow up you go to this island to try and fix the problem. when you are the one who caused the problem in the first place.
she time travels, gets pg by sawyer and dies. no more babies are able to be born on the island.
how does that not make seance?
that baby should of never existed in the 70's.
its just a theory on why i think Juliet will be so important. shes the cause of the baby problem.
'Juliet = smoke monster' is nothing new... and I will scream as loud as I possibly can if this is the case. Darlton, if you're reading this, and you're not, PLEASE DON'T DO IT. ITS NOT TOO LATE!! Don't do anything a fan would theorize!! BE ORIGINAL for the love of god!!! Besides, what did she do, go back thousands of years to be worshiped by the Egyptians so they carve her on their wall, then go inactive until 1988? Then start serving X? This reminds me how lame Tawaret = Statue = Juliet theories are... Juliet is cool, but she's not THAT cool...
Also, 'Juliet somehow caused the pregnancy problems' isn't new either. People guessed this in S3, when she was researching them. Yes, people were guessing time travel then (since S1, actually).
Aww, that's really great to read. I'm so glad they're bringing her back, and for what seems like more than just the final season curtain call. I'd love to see Sawyer and Juliet together again, but it that isn't meant to be, I'm glad they're giving her what appears to be a significant role in the last season.
She's dead, so I don't think she'll do anything 'new'. They'll just tell us more stuff about her past, is my guess.
Neoloki wrote:
Also, with all due respect to mister Lindelof, Juliet is not the reason for season 6. Daniel Faraday would have to take that honor seeing how it was his plan and that group would not have been anywhere near the Swan site without Daniel's manipulations. Come on Damon, are you a little star struck from staring at EM's bosom for too long.
---
But she WAS the one who decided to blow up the bomb when she saw it near her. It wasn't Daniel. It was her and only her decision.
---
Nuno Gonçalves wrote:
The only reason I'm not crazy mad about the creators totally screwed up her story by killing her before time is because I know she'll be back on the show someway. And while I can't really see how her being really dead will matter in terms of her character resolution I'll put some faith on Darlton. But believe me, this could ruin the final season for me.
---
Same here. I hope the "something very significant" is literally something very significant.
@Anth:
Juliet is THAT cool. But don't worry, she's not smokey.
Now, it would be awesome if the HER she looks like is something completely crazy.
I have a feeling that the producers really had to come up with an attractive and solid storyline for EM to agree putting up with all the hassle of going back and forth between two shows. Especially after they told her that they had no more ideas for her character. Thank God for the Lafleur episode and the great job JH and EM did. I'm glad that Juliet will be instrumental to the show's story in the final season. IMO it was a mistake to kill her off. If it was up to me, Kate would have been the one to go. I mean talk about a character's storyline running its course, but I digress...
All I know is that Juliet will be back and I for one expect to see her all over the Sawyer centric episode. But I'm also happy that there will be interaction between Juliet and Ben again. I kind of missed their weird relationship.
By the way, anybody else suspect that Sawyer will die at the end of the final season?
LINDELOF: “Juliet basically birthed season 6 by the actions that she takes in the final seconds of season 5. She is completely responsible for the end game of the show. So the character is going to be seen in a slightly different light this year. We gave her that action for a reason, and that’s because she’s so important to the fabric of the story.”
Jacob's Tapestry says something like "May God grant you all that your heart desires," which IIRC from Lostpedia is what Odysseus said to Nausicaa, and she in turn says something to the effect of "Never forget me, for I gave you life." I wonder if Juliet is responsible for helping the Losties beyond just detonating the bomb, and the tapestry is hinting at that.
@Baulu - I don't know. I think Sawyer could make a go of it if he stayed on the Island. In the off Island world, I don't know. Guess it depends on the nature of the Island - does it help you overcome your demons so you can move on with your life, or is it one last chance to get it right before you die?
Then again, that same phrase is found in a psalm from the Bible. Hmm.
JB
yes, she made a choice at the bottom of the well, but given the situation what options did she still have? Either lie there and die alone or smash the bomb which, she was told, could drastically alter the past and future and possibly creating a situation where she would be alive. She would have never detonated a bomb risking her lover and friends lives without the knowledge Daniel Faraday gave her. He was the architect and without him she could never have fulfilled her destiny.
Juliet, although we probably won't see all that much of her could have deep ramifications on the end game. I don't see how this could ruin season 6 for anybody, given the fact that Lost exist's in a multiverse.
I see Juliet's relationship with Sawyer or Ben in season 6's ALT story line as incidental and not relevant to continuing her story.
@Julietrules: No need for snideness. Sawyer and Kate, whether one likes it or not, are built into the meat and bones of this show. Juliet is not. "Transient shipper wishes" refers to the fad of shippers who latched on to a late series romance designed as an obstacle and convinced themselves it was more than what it was. The writers aren't going to rewrite their planned ending for a passing fad that will mean nothing years from now when the show is catalogued on 6 DVD sets.
I'm not saying Sawyer and Kate are endgame, but they are candidates for it because they are so deeply embedded into the story and have been from the beginning. As for those who wish for "happy endings" like they were pink ponies, I just don't think Lost has ever been or will ever be that kind of show. Certainly a bunch of "hype" isn't going to mean anything, if these writers are worth their salt.
I would hope Juliet was not pregnant when she agreed to Jack's nutty plan. She doesn't love her baby much if she agreed to get off that sub rather than take him/her to safety. So I don't think that will figure into the final story in any way.
I also don't see why Juliet "deserves" any more of a happy ending than great characters like Charlie or Locke. And I think there is plenty new about the idea of her being reincarnated as some incarnation of Smokey or as Tawaret or even as a ghost. It would be a lot more in keeping with the themes of Lost than having her be Sawyer's happy wifey for all eternity. (Which since we now know she is DEAD is a moot point.)
Yomaira
Well stated and written. You are exactly on point, at least to my thinking.
One thing, as I have pointed to in previous comments, "jack's nutty plan" isn't necessarily so accurate. It was Daniel's plan which he manipulated Jack into executing given Jack's single minded belligerence, he was the best candidate to see it through. It is my thinking that Daniel knew of his death that day (he had the day mapped out down to the minute in his journal) and knew Jack was the one who caused the Incident, originally. This was part of what Faraday was researching at Dharma headquarters in Anne Harbor.
@bamafanchris
"... Juliet's death while being pregnant somehow made the Island "distraught" enough to prohibit child birth."
That's actually an interesting theory. It could also be a major factor in why the DI was purged from the Island. The Other's blamed the incident and it's aftermath on child birth on the DI illegally being in Hostile territory. They came to the DI and told them to fix the problem and they couldn't figure out how so they were killed off.
Karma has a huge role in Lost. Richard being instructed to bring Juliet to the Island to fix the pregnancy issue is like Richard telling Locke the only way to save the Island is to bring all the people back. Yes, it was MIB interfering but this could give a deeper explanation of the loophole. MIB intervened in the redemptive process the Island takes with its inhabitants. You make a mistake, you learn from it and change. MIB exploited the opening at the "learning" step of the process as he has done so far with Ben and Locke.
Re: Juliet being pregnant
This is what I don't understand about the straight up myth style of interpreting Lost. If a scenario strikes one as "cool" then it seems all aspects of characterization just go straight out the window.
If Juliet was pregnant, how will that be revealed to us? There won't be any autopsy I'm thinking. Did Sawyer already know? Then why did they never discuss it? Why was the life of their child not a factor in them staying on that sub? If Juliet was keeping the secret to herself, then what does that say about her as a potential mother - that she'd risk the child's life for some crackpot scheme she didn't believe in five minutes earlier?
If Juliet was pregnant, then it's character assassination IMO. And on top of that it sounds like such an unwieldy plotline to exposit to the audience. So many theories I read seem to leave out common sense aspects and characterization, and this is a perfect example. It really doesn't matter how cool it would be if it turns the characters into unbelievable nonsense people.
@Neoloki:
I agree with agreeing with Yomaira (great post, by the way!) and I agree with the pregnancy theory. But I don't think Daniel had a secret plan and manipulated Jack into its execution. Damon has already said that Daniel had the right idea, but the wrong execution. And what reasons could he have had to trigger his and Charlotte's own death?
I believe that Daniel (as well as Eloise) meant to wipe out the existing timeline and replace it with another one: The one without Swan Station, button, plane crash and his and Charlotte's fatal island trip. What he got wrong was, as has already been stated as a possibility, that he tried to change a reality which was already changed. I think the incident we saw in the finale was the one referred to since Season 02 and that Jack had always detonated the bomb. Because if he hadn't, the island would have been completely destroyed, the electromagnetic reaction wouldn't have stopped. Therefore they created a timeline in which the island is allowed to exist in 2004 - while in the alt.timeline (which is the original timeline), there is no island at all. And, considering recent theories about the meaning of the island, therefore no redemption.
I think Juliet could well have been pregnant. In that case, her decision to endanger her child arose from the decision to save all the island inhabitants whom she thought would be killed in the execution of Jack's plan ("We can't just let all that people die"). This, together with her detonating the bomb, could have led to the pregnancy issues on the island. Maybe she created a paradox, or a sacrifice-loop, or a curse, or whatever.
And Juliet being pregnant could also offer a perfect solution to the quadrangle stuff: Sawyer still has issues with having children, Kate has just lost Aaron, and there were rumours that Kate could be pregnant with Jack's child.
So if it comes to the triangle solution I prefer, Jack dies or sacrifices himself heroically in some way in the end, being our new destiny-man, while Sawyer and Kate end up together, raising Jack's child. So Kate would have some part of Jack with her for the rest of her life (which would appease disappointed Jaters), and Sawyer could finally complete his remaining developmental task (take responsibility for a child) in honour and remembrance of Juliet. I know, won't be happening, but would be nice!
Neoloki wrote:
yes, she made a choice at the bottom of the well, but given the situation what options did she still have? Either lie there and die alone or smash the bomb which, she was told, could drastically alter the past and future and possibly creating a situation where she would be alive. She would have never detonated a bomb risking her lover and friends lives without the knowledge Daniel Faraday gave her. He was the architect and without him she could never have fulfilled her destiny.
---
The same way Daniel only had his idea to blow up the bomb because Jack, Hurley and Kate were brought back to the island in the 70s. So, Jack, Hurley and Kate are key to his plan. Every decision is influenced by past events and/or by something you want to happen. But what matters is the decision and the action. Juliet sacrificed herself for the greater good and she decided to do it all by herself. No one told her what she should do. Options were given. She made her choice. And this choice is responsible for whatever is going to happen next season.
Daniel is very important as Juliet, it was his idea, but he wasn't there when there was a chance to blow up the bomb. Juliet was. And she did it. So... it makes her as responsible as him. More responsible, actually, because it was her actions.
Whether people like it or not. Juliet is important to the overall story. Darlton just said it. I hope it's NOT a joke or some fake hype to please Juliet fans. Hopefully they're being sincere. Next season we will figure out.
Yomaria,
My theory is that the Island reacts to the behavior of humans. The more limited, malevolent, and ignorant your attitude and behavior, the more the Island is effected and will illicit a reaction. Jack needed an appendectomy because he was so hastily ready to leave before his work on the Island was finished. Ben got a tumor because he had strayed from the promise he made, as he watched Widmore being banished, of never breaking the rules of leadership.
What is a plausible reason for women to die before being able to give birth? I'll say it's because the Island is protecting itself from the continued destructive behavior of it's inhabitants. It's a warning that life cannot flourish with so much violence and destruction continuing to happen. It's communicating to them that violent acts such as H-bombs being detonated in the hope to attain ignorance, will not be tolerated or go unpunished. What message does it send if everyone on the Island is allowed to blow up a bomb to correct a mistake?
The Island has specifically chosen each character to be brought to it for a reason. If they fail that mission then there will be consequences. As Locke quipped to Miles "No use having any rules if there's no consequences for breaking them." I don't presume to know exactly what all those consequences are or what each mission is, I just found it interesting that we know Juliet was recruited to fix the pregnancy issue.
We know she was unable to do it, and then the Losties showed up and her focus turned to getting off the Island with Jack and company. In '74 she was nervous about delivering Ethan, and Sawyer had to coax her into doing it. Is this not symbolic for the Island trying to communicate that SHE is the one that can fix the pregnancy issue!! SHE is the one that can do it if she has the faith that it can be done. Her role in detonating the H-bomb prevented this from happening so the Island has reacted to this.
Follow Juliet's path; she comes to the Island to fix a problem, loses faith and wants to leave, gets a chance to leave but is talked back into staying by Sawyer who also gives her the courage to finally deliver a child and it makes her feel good about herself, then when she was given the opportunity to take it all back she took it. Her relationship with Sawyer is very symbolic of her mission for the Island in terms of giving her the hope of accomplishing something but then choosing to be blissfully ignorant before it is accomplished.
What does a reset mean? It means EVERYTHING you've done on the Island becomes null. Not only the bad things that happened but the progress you've made as well. Jack and Kate's conversation in Hawking's tent... Jack: If this plan works then all the misery we've been thru will just be wiped clean, like it never happened. Kate: It was NOT all misery. Jack: Enough of it was.
Juliet made the decision Jack made to be ignorant of their "progress" on the Island. The Island will not allow this to happen. If it brings you there for a goal to be accomplished, then it holds you accountable. I don't want to speculate on how Juliet will fix the pregnancy issue, who knows maybe it can never be fixed. The point being is that haste and ignorant decisions lead to consequences. Yes it's true if they never came to the Island, then they never made those bad choices. But I find that more of a character assassination then anything else. It means the point of the show would be, if you can figure out a way in life to become blissfully ignorant of all you've been thru then take it. No, that's wrong. Life has consequences, even on a "magical" Island you don't get to wipe the slate clean that easily.
I don't get why some people are so belittling or rude about putting down other's theories. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, particularly since NOBODY here knows what's going to happen in Season 6 AND Damon just said she was important to the fabric of the show.
And for those who dislike Juliet so much and think she was just a sloppy add-on, why are you even reading these posts?
I'll note - as I did right after the final episode of season 5 - that Julia patted her belly very much like someone who is pregnant at one point during that finale.
Yoyomaira - As others have noted, the info on the shooting schedule, which I indeed picked up from Sci Fi Wire, is accurate. Exact quotes are usually the best way to pick up information. Mitchell has two months minus holiday break to film. I don't know how significant a role she'll end up playing, but it will be a lot bigger role than Boone and others like him.
And note that Ben wasn't built into the original scheme of the show either (though clearly he has ended up taking a lot of the screen time that Lost originally planned to use for Eko). I have no doubt that Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Locke/Hugo/Sayid/Sun/Jin will all end up playing a significant role in how Lost ends, but that doesn't mean that no one other than those 8 central characters will. I suspect Ben will make to the final episode too, though maybe not beyond
If Juliet's purpose in season 6 has to do with the Island's pregnancy issue, which I doubt because it seems a bit to obvious, although logical, and the fact that she is dead in that universe, I am most confidant that she was not pregnant herself. Given her death, a pregnancy reveal would have little purpose or resolution. When we see Juliet again it will be in an another reality. The event's of her life will be minorly different and she will have never been to the Island. Her purpose therein will be different. I just don't see a use for a formerly pregnant dead woman or how that can be revealed without be entirely contrived.
Our Skies Lead To Our destiny
You need to watch The Variable again. It is fairly plain that Daniel had the day charted out in his journal in great detail. Also, the first thing Dan does on return to the Island is approach Jack and hook him with the idea that Eliose was wrong and he should not be there at all. This to lead Jack to believe he needs to get out of that time period. Dan quickly runs away to leave Jack to stew over it.
Watch how Dan is constantly referring to his Journal as each sequence of events happens. He specifically tells Miles, right on time, while waiting outside the Orchid on Dr. Chang's arrival. It really is fairly plain.
As far as Damon's statement, what he means is that the outcome of Jughead being thrown down the well will not be a complete reset like Dan wanted but a complication of an added universe while the one Dan meant to reset still moves on. His intention was right but the result was wrong. This does refute my idea's on Dan's last day on the Island. As far as his own death, that is simple, he knew it had to happen in order for Jack to get Elliose's help which was absolutely necessary to get to the bomb at all. Dan was willing to sacrifice himself if it meant Charlotte being alive. If his plan worked then he would also be alive.
I meant to say in my last paragraph that "This does not refute my idea's on Dan's last day on the Island."
DiscChick
An argument is how one constructs a theory. It is implied therein that the conflict is necessary. To take a disagreement personally is asinine and does not contribute to the conversation.
@ Locke's disciple, One Skies and Neoloki: I appreciate the intelligent conversation, but I still contend that this fandom is gaga over pregnancy, without thinking through the ways that it actually impacts human beings. If Juliet were pregnant in the finale, why rob the audience of that heartbreaking revelation? Now it would be an add-on that would be incredibly difficult to convey to the audience.
I ask any of the pregnancy devotees: HOW exactly do you think they'd explain the discovery of that detail in a woman that is now a pile of dust? If it comes from the mouth of a Juliet-ghost, is it reliable info? And if it's true, doesn't that speak VERY negatively to the character of Juliet as a mother? That she'd imperil her child, without even getting the consent of the child's father? It's SUCH a terrible plotline.
@DiscChick - grown ups often like to discuss all aspects of intriguing shows like this one, and this particular aspect has been pimped to holy hell the whole hiatus so it's rather hard to avoid.
@Greg Spiro: No the scifiwire info has not been validated. They have a quote from EM saying she's going to Hawaii in mid November, but nothing saying she'll be there for two straight months. She seems to vaguely say "yes I heard something about January 20"...which is Lost's premiere date! Scifiwire is hardly the go to site for accurate info and it sounds to me like they made some careless assumpptions. But we'll see.
Yomaira
I am in total agreement with you concerning Juliet being pregnant during The Incident. It would be an afterthought that spoke plainly to just bad writing. Juliet is dead in the on Island timeline. Her purpose will be different in the ALT universe.
@Yomairia
Re-reading my comment from bamafan's theory I see I forgot to specifically respond to the part about Juliet being pregnant when killed. I agree that part would be pointless. I was speaking more to the symbolism of the plan and the damage it caused.
@Yomaira and Neoloki:
Considering the statement that Juliet was originally to be written off Lost completely ("her story was done"), this news from Darlton implies that supposedly not the pregnancy was an afterthought, but the whole alt.reality. For they can put up with the pregnancy of a dead woman without EM, but to give us a convincing trip into the alt.world, they have to show it to us in detail.
And as to how the Losties will come to know about the pregnancy, hell, we will have to put up with a lot of second-hand information for the mythology, too. Someone, like Jacob or MIB, might just tell. We knew a whole lot about Dharma from secondary sources before we got our first glimpses into their 'reality'. They will come up with something. Might be a dream, might be a vision, might be a tapestry - got a lot of those already.
I think it might even be a hint that Damon talked about Juliet "basically birthing" Season 06. He is a trickster when it comes to semantics, we all know that.
And let's just remember that pregnancy issues, mommy/daddy issues and difficult parent-children-relationsips have been built up elaborately for every single main character so far, not to speak of the meaning of Tawaret. There is something about children that will be revealed as main topic. Birthing and nurturing children, abandon children, loosing children - something like that is clearly a significant part of the mythology.
I agree with Locke's disciple (you aren't Damon or Carlton, per chance? Because I would love if everything turned out as you suggest!).
I don't think it would be bad writing if Juliet had given up her child in emotional desperation. It wasn't bad writing to see all of them give in to their emotional needs when executing Jack's plan. I am repeating myself here, but why do you want the characters to be heroes? They are FLAWED, even partially BAD people. This is what Lost is about. They act selfishly and emotionally where we (and maybe Smokey) want them to be rational and altruistic.
When this certain aspect of Lost's mythology is furthered revealed, children, taken children and pregnancy, I have always thought it would come through Ben's story. He was the instrument and the reason through which it was made significant, as Richard has suggested, by bringing Juliet to the Island. Much of which has to do with the loss of his mother through childbirth and possibly the missing import of Annie. The taking of Alex and his unwillingness to kill the child on orders from Widmore further underlined this as Ben's issue. In the end it does seem his story to be told and why he turned the attention of The Other's too solving this particular mystery of the Island.
@Neoloki: It's late and I'm tired, maybe this is why I don't understand your theory. But why would Daniel try to manipulate Jack into causing the incident at all? The 'incident', as it is referred to by the Dharma people, means an occurrence which lead to the building of the Swan Station, the button, the plane crash and Charlotte's death.
If Jack had done nothing, the island would probably have been destroyed by the electromagnetic pocket, everyone would have died and the alt.reality would have remained the only reality available - where he, Charlotte and everyone else are living safely. If, on the other hand, Daniel didn't know about this 'safe' reality - what could make him think that causing the incident would save them and Charlotte? If he already knew about all things that would happen in the near future, he would have had to know that there would be a massive electromagnetic reaction. Therefore detonating Jughead would be the only reasonable thing to do in order to prevent the Station from being built, from the button and all that led to the crash. And this is exactly what he told Jack.
So what was this secret plan about?
If by 'causing the incident' you mean deliberately creating two alternate realities - this wouldn't help neither Daniel nor Charlotte. If you mean 'replacing one reality with another', this is exactly what Jack tried to do. If you mean 'preventing the electromagnetic pocket from spreading', this is probably what happened and caused those two realities - still not saving Charlotte in this one.
Futhermore:
How could Daniel know all that things would be happen from his diary? Who wrote it into there and when? Eloise wasn't even there most of the time.
And he seemed to be honestly shocked after Eloise had shot him. I have to add that his behaviour was so stupid in that situation, approaching the Others - if he knew what would happen, wouldn't he have tried to be a little smarter - if only to spare his mother the pain of having to shoot her son? If he thought he had to die to ensure the reality they were in - why trying to change the future at all? Or why not try and warn Jack and everyone else who went with him on that trip to the Others?
I had my problems with 'The Variable' and foremost 'Follow the Leader' from the beginning. First Sawyer doesn't want Daniel to go see the Others and he is in no hurry to leave the island. If Daniel had told him about an upcoming danger (electromagnetic pocket), you might think he would have tried to get his people, especially Juliet, off the island. Miles even tells him Daniel is crazier than ever. Then suddenly he knows that the island isn't 'safe', while Miles suddently comes to the conclusion that Daniel had been right about everything that has been happened so far - relying on what evidence? Miles hasn't even seen Daniel since he left with Kate and Jack and in that moment Miles explicitly didn't want to join them. Sawyer could have been conning Radzinsky in order to find a way off the island, but what about Miles? And why would Radzinsky agree to such a plan, but not stop the drilling?
And, while I'm at it, why didn't he ask one small question about where Sawyer and Juliet were from and what their intention was, instead of focussing simply on Kate? Why would he agree to let them go if he considered them a threat, probably a conspiracy? Why wouldn't he want to ask who else was involved, especially after Hurley was found to have vanished? I think here we have a lot of bad writing.
Oh, and not to forget Juliet being pregnant or not: I wouldn't think it to be pointless or bad writing if she was, but all that island-pregnancy-issue could nevertheless be conncted with her person without a pregnancy. Her great 'importance to the fabric of the show' could result from what Locke's disciple pointed out, pregnancy or not. While Juliet being the smoke monster would be as much pointless as ridiculous.
I would even like her to have been pregnant because it would fit into her as well as Sawyer's story (while hers is over on island, his is not) - and I am talking as a Skater here!
Your addressing a lot in a very short space:
Daniel new there would be an incident at the Swan site. He explains this too Jack. That is the reason why he want's to take the bomb their. To blow the site so the plain does not crash. Daniel was off Island at Anne Harbor using there resources to learn of there studies. I am sure Daniel did his own investigations into the Island and even dharma before he even got to the freighter. Given who his parent's are and his previous experiments on himself with time travel god only knows how much he learned. Given all these ideas it is not too far off for Daniel to understand that he might not make it through the day. I don't view daniel brandishing a gun into the Other's camp as an incidental action. He obviously new exactly what was happening at the Orchid, what was about to happen at the Swan and even what time Chang would show up at the Orchid site.
As far as Daniel being smarter and avoiding getting shot, I believe it is called WHH and he explains it pretty succinctly when discussing little pebbles and large boulders into the river of time.
I don't think he knew who would kill him only that he would die that day and needed Jack to follow through with his plan to save Charlotte.
As to his intentions and the Incident, what we saw from The variable to The Incident was ALWAYS what happens. Jack was the cause of the Incident as he was always the cause. WHH. And that goes for why Dan did not try to get everybody off the Island because he knew what was possible to change and what he thought he could change. If those people were always on the Island at that time then that is what was supposed to happen.
Re Juliet possibly being pregnant:
I don't buy that for several reasons.
Would she have liked to have a baby with Sawyer? Yes, but as she said to Amy the timing would have to be right. Despite being 'comfortably settled' with the DI for 3yrs, they all would have lived with the spectre of another 'time twist' possibly occurring eventually. With Juliet's knowledge of pregnancy problems in the future and her experience of how dangerous 'time flashes' can be, I honestly doubt she would allow herself to become pregnant while they were still in the 70's.
When she held her stomach 'protectively' when she spoke to Rose and Bernard,I suspect that was a sign of her inner turmoil and disappointment. She wanted a relationship with Sawyer like that of Rose and Bernard. No doubts. No uncertainty. She held her stomach also because she believed the 'timing' would never be right for her and Sawyer to be a true couple or 'family' somewhere down the line.
If Juliet was pregnant, I honestly believe she would have agreed to stay on the sub and take a chance in the '77 world off island with Sawyer despite Kate and despite her parent's divorce. She has been too 'pro life' to put the life of her unborn child to the man she loves in a fit of jealousy.
If she was pregnant, I could have imagined her helping get Sawyer and Kate off the sub to help others and thus sacrificing her relationship with him off island but that didn't happen.
@Neoloki: I don't know...
As to what I came to think has happened, I agree with you that WHH is the deal. I think there have always been two timelines (or two alternate realities), which were NOT caused by the incident in 1977, but a while before, perhaps in ancient times, or when Richard arrived, probably being something about the temple and the 'pirates'. Something must have happened there, maybe the same thing that causes the island now to flip through time.
So in 1977, there are two realities:
- Reality A with the Island existing (this is the reality of Season 01-05)
- Reality B with the Island having been destroyed long ago (or the Island never having existed at all).
Now there are three different scenarios in 1977 in Reality A:
1. Jack and Daniel (or Jack by himself, this is just a detail that doesn't matter) detonate the bomb BEFORE Radzinsky hits the energy pocket. Nothing to compensate the explosion. The Island is destroyed, everyone dies. Reality B will be the only existing reality. No Island, no plane crash: Charlotte is saved.
2. Jack/Daniel do NOTHING: Radzinsky hits the pocket, nothing to compensate the energy: The Island is destroyed, everyone dies. Reality B will be the only existing reality. No Island, no plane crash: Charlotte is saved.
3. The bomb is detonated EXACTLY at the 'right' (or wrong) moment: Both destructive energies are equal and compensate each other. The Island is NOT destroyed and everyone except Juliet survives. They have to build the hatch in order to control the energetic instabilies that will occur from now on. Thus Jack, Daniel and Juliet have ensured the two realities, in one of which 815 will crash in 2004 and lead to Charlotte dying on the Island.
I think this is meant by 'right idea and wrong execution': The timing was bad. One might even think 'the Island' somehow pulled Juliet down just to ensure Reality A to happen in 2004...
So it could be that Daniel had done some research in Ann Arbor which led him to believe that the Island had to be destroyed. As to his manipulating Jack and ensuring all the other things to happen, I still think if he had wanted that, he acted quite clumsily in this. And I still don't get where the information in his jornal came from. But maybe they will clarify in Season 06.
Our Skies..
Let me comment real quick. (sick with the flu. bear with me.)
How could those first two possibilities even be viable. We saw what happened. What always happened. Just because Lost exists in a Multiverse does not preclude WHH or grant exceptions. Jack always threw the bomb down the well. Juliet always hit it with a rock and Dan always died by his Mothers hand. We have no evidence or reason to believe it is otherwise.
To comment on yesterday's Daniel discussion. During "Because You Left" Dan states to Sawyer he has spent his adult life studying space/time and his journal is filled with everything he knows about the DI.
Where are you getting the idea that the Island needs to be or possibly is destroyed. it was never Dans intention to destroy the Island.
I think you would do good to do a re-watch because you didn't seem to catch everything the first time. and who could.
to further explain about Dan's research:
Since we know he did extensive research on the DI before he got to the Island it is illogical to believe he did not continue his research on the DI when he went to Anne Harbor.
Oh no, my lengthy comment just vanished! Ok, so now again, but shorter:
I didn't meant that all three of those szenarios came to happen - of course only the third happened, I got that. Sorry for the misunderstanding, my choice of words was bad. I meant POSSIBILITIES. But - and here we disagree, I think: The third one that came to pass happened unintentionally.
Because I agree that Jack had always detonated Jughead and therefore caused all what we have been watching since Season 01. But I think Daniel's plan bore a mistake, and that is that he had judged the impact of the incident to be a serious accident, but one which would nevertheless lead to the hatch being built. In reality, if it hadn't been for Jack, the Island would have been completely destroyed by the electromagnetic impact. By his actions, he ensured there would be an Island left to crash on in 2004, not to mention the building of the hatch, the button and everything else.
But that was NOT his intention.
I think Daniel really meant to destroy and Island, but in the end saved it. There is a lof of evidence for his plan being bigger than just stopping a Dharma-accident: Exactly his talk about pebbles and boulders hints at the fact that he wanted to create a very big boulder - like destroying the Island. And remember the semantics: Talk about "blowing up the Island", about "We just can't let all that people die".
What Daniel may have known from his research was either that by destroying the Island there would be created a reality with the Island not existing, OR that there already existed this reality without the Island. All he had to do was ensure this reality to come to pass.
But, of course, what he did ensure was just this reality we have seen.
And I don't believe into this theory of being 'transported' into another reality. Daniel, as a scientist, has no reason to believe into such a magical occurence. How would such a transport be explained? With a time paradox, so that the universe groped them by the hair and threw them into another reality to avoid complications? They had to die in this reality, but it wouldn't have mattered, because in the instant of their death they would have never existed on the Island at all, so in fact they wouldn't have died. Time paradox again, but one that is inherent to all change-the-future-scenarios. While 'being transported' isn't valid. They talked a lot about people dying on the Island (remember the scene with Rose and Bernard where they talked about their favourite ways of dying?) and of loosing their memories, but never of a 'transport'.
In fact, the intention of loosing all Island-memories was exactly what led them to their actions. What reason would they have had to believe they would loose their memories if they would just change into another 'setting', but being alive and well nonetheless?
And I think that there will have been a reality without the Island existing all along. Every spoiler we have heard of so far points into an alternate (or original) reality without the Island, the most recent being the episode name 'Dr. Linus'. If not for Jughead, this would be the only reality available. If for good or bad remains to be seen. We will be given glimpses into that reality soon enough.
Daniel's plan was good, but not good enough to fool the Island.
Oh yes, and about Daniel's Dharma research - it led him to believe that he could prevent the 'incident' from happening. Of course we all thought right before watching 'The Incident' that he got it wrong and caused the incident by throwing the bomb - opening up the pocket in the first place or something, stupid Jack and all. I couldn't even believe it when I saw the electromagnetic incident starting to happen on its own on screen in May because I was sure absolutely nothing scary would have happened if not for Jack.
But Daniel got it wrong in another, more destiny-is-a-fickle-bitch-way: The incident would have happened nevertheless, but would have taken care of a hatch ever being built. Daniel based his actions on information out of the same timeline in which the incident had always been stopped at the right time - by Jughead. This is like Shakespeare'ian tragedy: You miss a tiny detail and everything turns another and supposedly dire direction.
Elizabeth Mitchell really needs to start posting more theories. She seems to know how to start a discussion!
(By the way, since I happen to live there, it's spelled Ann Arbor.)
yes, I believe Daniel's intention was for the Incident to never have happened and The Swan never have been built. In that, yes, his planned was flawed because he created the necessity of The Swan. However, my point originally was that Dan was very aware of the exact events of that day through his research on the DI before he got on the boat. He also could have been aware of certain details from his time travel experiments. With this I think he knew Jack was the one that needed to see the task to it's end. I am sure Dharma had very detailed description of that day. However, I don't think he knew that his mother would kill him.
I don't think it was ever Dan's intention to blow up the Island nor should it be factored into any theory as a possible outcome. His intentions were simply to stop the Swan from being built thus stop 815 from crashing and then the freighter from coming to the Island. Those words on the schematic where only suggesting the unstable nature of the plan and a worry that the Bomb could blow up the Island if not handled properly. His explanation about throwing pebbles vs boulders was only to demonstrate how one could possibly make a change in the river of time and had nothing to do with the Island being blown up.
@Neoloki: I still don't get your point, I fear.
You said:
"It is my thinking that Daniel knew of his death that day (he had the day mapped out down to the minute in his journal) and knew Jack was the one who caused the Incident, originally."
Ok, so perhaps there is a way he could have known all about the day of the incident. Has he been to the future, perhaps? Ok, granted that. Granted he knew that Jack would throw the bomb. Then he would also know that the Dharma people would STILL build the hatch over the pocket-site, thus causing 815 to crash. Because this is evidently what we will see in Season 06 - that nothing has changed. So if Faraday had 'seen' the future, he must have seen his own failure. Or, if he saw another future, that could only be one in which the Island was destroyed completely.
And if he knew that Jack was going to detonate the bomb, why didn't he give him exact information about WHEN to detonate the bomb? Because then it must have been of crucial importance not to detonate Jughead if the pocket hadn't been hit yet - or all would die and the Island fly to tiny bits. Except if this was precisely what he wanted.
You said:
"His intentions were simply to stop the Swan from being built thus stop 815 from crashing and then the freighter from coming to the Island." - But how would he do that? If he knew about Jack being the one to detonate the bomb, if he knew he would STOP the catastrophic release of electromagnetic energy - how was that to stop the Swan from being built? And how was that to change the future for them? They would still live on the Island, Charlotte still would have died in 1977, Jack still would have had her and had lost her, Juliet still would have met Sawyer. They could guess that their other selves in 2004 will lead a better life, but what about their own misery?
Through his research of the DI before and after the time jumps he must of recognized at some point his presence therein and then the lack of it.
Let me explain what I see happening from the spoilers, in case their is some confusion in what we see:
1. Alt reality: Jughead detonates but does not create an explosion because of the massive pocket of EM. It does however create a bridge to a parallel universe in which the people are the same, but certain events are slightly different. The Island is still "there", but 815 never crashes. It will be a type of consciousness skipping similar to the way Desmond time traveled. Jack's group is the one's that "skip"
2. On Island post Jughead, e.g., '77 on. Jack' group is still on Island and have to move forward with that time line.
3. On Island post jacob's death. as we saw during The Incident.
Sayid gave the information to Jack through Dan's journal as to when to detonate the bomb and where. Radzinsky did hit the pocket of EM before they dropped the bomb, that is when they knew to do it.
I don't know if Dan knew Jack had a H-bomb at the Swan site from his research on the DI only that Jack was most likely involved in the event's that had transpired. However, I am pretty confidant that Dan had no intentions of blowing up the Island.
Sorry, if I am not making sense. This is a poor day for me to have this discussion. I am having a hard enough time thinking let alone trying to second guess the writers intentions.
Well, I guess we will just have to wait for the new Season before we can be sure about those things.
I took the spoilers to convey a different meaning, too, but who knows.
Just one more thought: Jack acted as soon as he had enough time and no more opponents before him to drop the bomb, plus he never told anybody to wait. In fact, if it hadn't been for Sawyer and the gang, he would have arrived at the drilling site much faster. And at the swan site he didn't exactly hide in the bushes waiting for the pocket to be hit, he was already on his way to the pit. Would he have stood there in front of all that armed men waiting for the right moment to come? Besides, when the release of energy starts, he looks clearly puzzled, which he needn't be if Daniel had told him exactly what to wait for in the journal. I still think they all expected to die that moment.
But whatever happened, at least I got to watch a few minutes of the last scenes of The Incident on Youtube to be sure of the above, and just the musical theme gave me the creeps. I am very much looking forward to my rewatch of Season 05 as soon as my damn DVDs are finally delivered from the UK, and I will pay attention to every word Faraday says. Maybe you are even right!
By the way, before answering to your post I spent quite some puzzled seconds asking myself what you mean by "Jughead detonates but does not create an explosion because of the massive pocket of Elizabeth Mitchell." That happens when you get used too much to those abbreviations.
But thanks for the discussion and get well soon!
" And at the swan site he didn't exactly hide in the bushes waiting for the pocket to be hit,"
actually, that is exactly what he did. when he was having that deplorable discussion with Kate, asking her why she came back to the Island and they talked about Claire, they were in the bushes overlooking The Swan site. He waited 'till they had just about hit the pocket. Jack says it is about to happen.
You must have missed it.
@ Our Skies...
I posted a theory called Reciprocity: Why the Island needs the Losties.
I have been reluctant to post it for along time, since most theories in here are more about imagination and creativity than they are about what the show is about. Anyways it is quite long, but was partially inspired by one of your comments. It's really the first half of a theory, maybe I'll post the rest later. Nothing to speculative, really just an analytical review of the show.
Maybe you'll like it...
@Neoloki: You might be right in that, I didn't quite remember that scene.
Today I missed a postal delivery which supposedly contains my Season 05 DVDs, and as soon as I am able to do a proper rewatch (hopefully tomorrow) I will pay attention to evidence for your theory again.
But at least I think that if not Daniel, most of the rest expected and accepted to die in this timeline.
That damn post office!!!!
@Neoloki: Ok, just watched it again on youtube - and you could be right or not. He might just consider how to get down there without being shot. When he says it is about to happen I think he could also mean the incident as a whole, so he won't waste any more time talking. As far as I am concerned, his intention still is to throw that thing into the site BEFORE the accident starts to happen.
But I guess we will learn what their intention really was in Season 06 in all detail.
Yeah, I agree that he wanted to through the trigger in the well before the incident starts. Dan wanted to prevent the whole damn thing. I doubt he realized that HE was the cause of The Incident.
I am on the west coast and am waiting for the Blu-Ray release. Lost is spectacular in that format. It is almost like watching it a new. "till then I downloaded season 5 onto my ps3 from the internet.