Here is another short promo where you can now see it is Jack yelling "Do not go back to the island!!"
Thanks to Odul for the heads up and Lyly for the clip.
Posted By: The ODI
Episode 4x12 Parts 2 and 3 - Promo 4
(Comments: 136)
Labels:
Jack,
Oceanic 6,
Season 4,
There's No Place Like Home,
Trailers,
Video
Post Your Comment (looking for the old comment form?)
N O T E
Name-calling, personal attacks, spamming, excessive self-promotion, condescending pomposity, general assiness, racism, sexism, any-other-ism, Shipper bating, homophobia, acrophobia, excessive CAPS and destructive (versus constructive) criticism will get you BANNED from the party.
If you have a problem or an issue with a comment, do NOT post it in the comments, email me here. If you reply/respond to an unnecessary comment, your post will be deleted as well.
Subscribe to our 
Follow our 
Sign up to our 
136 Comments:
So they must be over the water when the fuel leak happens. Otherwise why would Jack say, "Do not go back to the island." Still don't get how Jack claims Sawyer chose to stay on the island. So if Sawyer jumps out of the helicopter like we've all speculated, guess they all must know he's okay, and not think he's dead.
I guess they see at this point something happening to the freighter or know something's about to happen to it, I just wonder how they get that octagonal raft... octagonal though, Dharma raft?
Hell yeah! "Do not go back to the island!!!" Jack FTW!
I cant believe that this little bastard tells Kate that Sawyer "chose to stay" and that Jack himself is the "one who came back" if HE'S the one who tells Frank not go back to the island.
Please, someone. Find Jack a bridge.
i think that jack yells this after they have left the freighter. the prob must get much worse for jack to not let them go back. as much as i dont like jack i realise he wouldnt leave ppl behind if he felt he had a choice.
I think we should all just watch the episode first before we start the rant on Jack. Before,even with these promos,it's all just assumptions.
Everyone is ragging on Jack.
What if the O6 is in that chopper?
Maybe Jack is trying to save Aaron and Sun?
That isn't a tough choice. Risk the life of a baby and pregnant woman to try to get more people off the island?
Anyone would save Aaron and Sun, over the chance to get the rest off the island.
I really do think Jack fans are going to have a problem his behavior in this episode.
DocArzt has a spoiler puzzle for what happens on the helicopter. Initally, I thought it was Lapidus saying that to the freighter. But it may turn out that Sawyer made his choice, because of the choice Jack made, ordering do not go back to the island.
Jack's got a monkey on his back to get off that island. Nothing and no one is going to stop him now that he's off it. It's why he was in denial even when Daniel said rescuing them wasn't their primary goal.
i think they're running out of fuel and there is no time to go back to the island and thats why jack says "dont go back" coz if they try that they might all die :)
and jack haters can bash him after the episode but maybe -just maybe- its better to wait and see the whole episode first.
I think Sawyer chose to stay because he is not the only one on the helicopter. He is volunteering and Jack is saying that to Kate because he didn't. He wanted a future with Kate and in Jacks mind, Sawyer chose the island or other people in the helicopter over her. It wouldn't be nice but Jack is a mess in the future.
Jack is awesome. If he is shouting that, he is shouting it because going back is way too much of a risk - he has the choice to either save some or risk them dying in a vain attempt to go back and save more.
Why does almost every thread have to turn into a discussion about Jack?
Not sure why ABC made a whole new promo just to show Jack saying it. I could tell it was Jack's voice from previous promo. I hope they release a bit more to keep me invested for another week.
Nicole-- I think because this promo is about Jack.
You know, I really don't get this whole mentality of Jack being a sacred cow whose actions you can't even discuss without being accused of bashing him.
I mean, last week when someone wanted to discuss it they were told Jack is a fictional character who is only doing what the writers are having him do so you were basically a moron for wanting to discuss his behavior and actions and his motivations.
When someone else was discussing Jack they were warned no Jack bashing, and it wasn't really bashing. I mean, you don't see stuff like that in regards to Locke, Ben, Sawyer, etc. It's only Jack who seems to be sacrosanct.
I was just curious if Jack's decision or order to Lapidus not to go back to the island played a part in the decision Sawyer made, but message received that no discussions where Jack doesn't come off as a glowing hero are allowed.
In future, I will treat Jack as a non-entity whose actions or possible actions are not allowed to be discussed for the sake of discussion.
Nicole, this promo has Jack as the focal point giving that order. That's why he's being discussed. Locke isn't really doing anything we haven't seen before in all the other promos.
Maybe he says don't go back to the Island, because he knows what Locke is about to do could kill them all.
It's hard to tell from the promos. Remember the promo when Gault said "Torch the Island" .. in the episode he said it in a whole different tense.
I liked what Damon had to say in the podcast about why Jack is his favorite character: he's trying to be a leader in an impossible situation, and it sucks to be a leader: you're the focus of everyone's ire because you have to make all their choices for them, and you can't make the one that's right for everyone--it's statistically impossible. Having had no leadership experience my whole life, I was elected to the BOD of a sports organization last year. It was the most stressful year of my life. I ended up stepping down after one term because I really enjoy being liked, and everyone HATED me!
Everyone heaps hate upon Jack because he is in the position where one is the target for lots of hate. I'm not saying he doesn't have selfish reasons for doing the things he does, but as Locke said when Jack said he didn't want to be a leader, he couldn't, "and yet everyone treats you as if you are..."
Jack is in the ultimate Catch-22 situation. I am impressed with the way LOST lets him squirm and make bad decisions and live (or try avoid living) with the consequences of those decisions. I like that they made the main character so unlikeable in many ways. It's the part of the show that's realistic. It's awesome.
Everyone heaps hate upon Jack because he is in the position where one is the target for lots of hate.
Actually, if I were to heap hate on him in public, I would mostly do it because I find him boring and would rather see other characters. But so it goes, I guess. Everyone has their favourites.
If you see the latest podcast, Damon Lindelof says that he does see a lot of Jack-bashing on the Lost boards around and he totally disagrees with them. He says that Jack is his favourite character and that sometimes he takes tough decisions for the best of everyone and that being a leader is not easy.....
He says that Jack is his favourite character and that sometimes he takes tough decisions for the best of everyone and that being a leader is not easy.....
That's great for Damon, and I really don't begrudge anyone joy about Jack. That doesn't mean I have to care about him or find him interesting. Or talk about him on the net, which I will stop at once after finishing this post.
@surly
A great post! Jack is my least favorite character but I find it amazinging that TPTB let him "squirm" with his bad decision-making. I don't know if it makes Jack more sympathetic but it certainly makes Lost more interesting.
BTW - I, too, am on the BOD of a sports organization so I do understand what its like when everyone thinks you have made bad decisions.
Jack will come off badly in this episode, the question is how badly.
@maria--
Yeah, he's not my fave either, but I do find him sympathetic and I must say I think Matt Fox is pretty brave to play him the way he does. I think hating him is an easily-defended position! I think Locke is the same way--the way he handles leadership is equally, uh, realistic, and more my style: flee and do your own thing to avoid being judged! Quick!
What sport? Mine was roller derby--a bunch of anti-authoritarian punk rock women. Stepping into a leadership position was like painting a big target on my forehead!
Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled character-bashing...
Argggg!!
It's like the same promo again and again...
Yeah, I know that the Oceanic6 get off the Island, but all I want to know it's what happens in the Orchid...
Were are the sneak peeks???
Jack will come off badly in this episode, the question is how badly.
Why should this episode be any different than any other one? LOL
I mean you either get Jack and enjoy the character for what he is or you spend all your time ranting about how awful he is, but regardless of which side of the debate you sit on, those that like Jack won't see him as the spawn of Satan after this episode (as Damon said, it is because of Jack that the O6 get rescued) and those that hate Jack will pounce on every little thing they can find to pounce on just like they always do.
Upps
I mean :
where are the sneak peeks???
Well, that's the problem - I don't particularly 'enjoy' jack's character on any level. Of course I know it's fiction and he's written as a flawed hero, but that can't change the fact that i don't find him interesting. Maybe that will change, maybe not. I rate characters on how much they intrigue me, not whether I'd like them or not in real life. At the moments jack doesn't. But hey, maybe if he turns into a real asshole it might engage me more.
Damon saying jack's his favorite character means absolutely nothing to me.
i just think that all lost fans are secretly in love with jack, so they either say all good about him, or they bash him because they are embarrassed about their love for him.
except for the person who finds jack boring... that person doesnt fit into this theory...
@Christopher--Yikes, neither do I! If anything, my feelings for Jack are of a sibling nature--he's like that holier-than-thou brother I just wanna slap.
@Danielle--The ep is still over a week away! We probably won't get sneaks til the weekend, at least. I know, frustrating, right?
That episode where Locke tells Jack to be leader -- White Rabbit? -- is the "heroes make tough choices (that sometimes result in fatalities) but do not make it personal" episode. That's the big lesson that Jack is resisting learning and still mostly hasn't learned.
He's the reluctant hero. He wants to fix things but can't handle the responsibility of what happens when people die as a result of his decisions, whether it's in surgery or on the island. This episode starts with a woman and Boone drowning. Jack saves Boone but decides that if he leaves Boone for the other woman, they might all die. So he saves Boone first and then goes back alone for the other woman (because no one else can swim?), to no avail. The woman dies and Boone is mad.
Whoosh. We see young Jack trying to be the hero at school and his father gives him the speech about what it takes to be a hero. He tells Jack that he has what it takes, but Jack doesn't.
Whoosh. Jack goes into retreat mode, trying to deal with his issues. He sees Christian in the jungle and runs after him. Locke saves Jack from a fall and tells him that Jack should be leader, that they all look to him for that, and he needs it. He comes back and makes the live together, die alone speech.
This seems important for the finale. Jack accepted the task of hero, unsure of his ability to handle it. Maybe the island is testing him. If he says they shouldn't go back, I'm sure it's for a good leader-reason. But I'm also confident that that guilt is what plagues him in the FF.
Regarding Sawyer's jump, I can't imagine Sawyer jumping into the open water from high up in a helicopter. For one thing, above 40 feet, it would be almost certain death upon hitting the water. For another, if he jumps off, it's probably over the island to warn them. I won't be surprised to see a Sawyer hero move, but I think it would be WAY out of character for it to be a suicidal hero move. He has too much of a survival instinct.
I make no secret about my feelings on Jack. I'd probably not be nearly as interested in Lost if there weren't this wonderfully complex and interesting character right in the middle of it. We haven't seen the episode yet, but it would appear Jack is going to have to make a tough call. Go back to the island and try to save them all or leave them behind and save who he can. Somebody has to be willing to make that decision and will we see Sayid, Hurley or Kate stand up and object and offer up a better idea? Maybe we will and maybe we won't, but regardless the writers are making it rest on Jack's shoulders just as they have made every difficult decision rest firmly on his shoulders. As someone said earlier, it's brave and brilliant writing.
Everyone is ragging on Jack.
What if the O6 is in that chopper?
Maybe Jack is trying to save Aaron and Sun?
We can see that Sawyer is still on the helicopter at this point - his shirt is clearly visible behind Jack. So that must be when he decides to jump out.
For the record, it's not Jack telling Frank not to go back to the island that's the problem with his character. THAT is a tough leadership call and he has to make it. It's him throwing that "He chose to stay." crap about Sawyer in Kate's face that makes him loathesome, since Sawyer clearly made a choice at least as difficult as his own when he decided to make the sacrifice of jumping off so the rest of them would have a better chance of reaching safety. In light of that, Jack's whole attitude toward Sawyer staying behind, and him (Jack) being the one that saved her just shows him to be a complete and totaly douche. I really don't see any way to avoid that conclusion.
The sacred cow treatment demanded by the Jack fans is the only thing that keeps this conversation going. People can say absolutely awful things about Kate, Juliet, Locke, Sawyer, etc. and everyone just moves along. But any time a negative comment is made about Jack, his fans attack. It stifles conversation, very annoying.
Whether or not Jack is justified in leaving everyone else behind remains to be seen. But there's little doubt he was being a right little bitch when he was yelling at Kate in the future that he was her saviour. This isn't about secretly loving a repulsive character. It's about trying to understand why the story still spends so much time on someone so banal.
Why are people choosing to ignore this possible scenario?
Frank says we have a fuel leak.
Sawyer says he will jump out to save them.
Frank says they should get him back.
Jack says no.
That's hardly acting the villain.
tom - I don't think there will be time to consider ferrying Sawyer back as that would waste precious fuel. However, let's assume for a moment that this is true, I still think Jack would be a douche for throwing that at Kate in the form of "He chose to stay." JMO.
surly said"The ep is still over a week away! We probably won't get sneaks til the weekend, at least. I know, frustrating, right?"
Nooooooooooooooooo!
My hopes were dashed!!!
except for the person who finds jack boring... that person doesnt fit into this theory...
Somebody always has to mess up the statistics.
Jack is like the triangle. People seems to hate him , but he triggers a lot of passionate debate.
For me he is one of the most complex and beautifully written characters in the history of television.
But any time a negative comment is made about Jack, his fans attack. It stifles conversation, very annoying.
I've never noticed any character being bashed the way Jack gets bashed, but regardless, are fans who enjoy the character not supposed to jump in and offer a different opinion? Are we just supposed to sit back quietly and never disagree? That's kind of a silly expectation don't you think?
As for Jack's comments to Kate, it does look as if he's being a douche. He's falling apart personally and he's hurt and he lashed out in a nasty way. Yeah it sucks and it's awful and there's no excuse for it and he should get down his knees and beg her forgiveness. I agree he apparently said something he had no business saying.
Okay, so what? We crucify him over this and never, no matter what, find any way to forgive him for the bad things he does? So Jack is the only character on Lost who isn't allowed to act like a douche at one time another. I just need to clarify that so I'll know what the rules are for the next two seasons.
Must hate Jack forever for being a douche to Kate.....check
Must hate Jack forever for crumbling into a mess of alcholism and drums.....check
@odul
I´m certain the octagonal raft comes from the freighter. It´s a typical liferaft for ships and maybe Sun launches it to leave the freighter before it explodes.
@lostaficionado
40 feet hight means certain death? That´s absolutely not true. I jumped from that and you must have a very bad angle to get seriously hurt. 40 m can be a problem, but didn´t you know about all those people jumping from very high bridges of 80 to 100 m in suicidal intention and surviving it? It´s more than you might assume.
I can´t believe that Sawyer jumps after Jack is screaming "don´t go back...". That would really make his quote "Sawyer chose to stay" sarcastic. And we can say many things abot him, but sarcastic?
I've never noticed any character being bashed the way Jack gets bashed
Whaaat?
Kate is by far the most bashed character, and nobody defends her.
And,It´s not going to be me who does it !!! ;)
Locke's voice sounds so different when he says "just wait till you see what I'm about to do"
@katieb--from my perspective, Locke gets bashed almost as much as Jack does...I guess who you notice getting bashed depends who your favorite character is.
@bicbic--I agree, it does sound different: like a kid who's about to open a big birthday present. Goody goody goody! TOQ has a huge variety of vocal inflection, and Locke always sounds a little different depending on what mood he's in, and Locke's voice is really pretty different from TOQ's normal speaking voice. There's a vid somewhere of an interview he did where he demonstrates what his voice sounded like when he first got into acting: he recites a little Shakespeare with an Upper Peninsula accent. It's HI-larious. So if the voice sounds different, I'm sure it's intentional.
cool promo. even though we have seen most of it before!! but now we know that it is jack who says to not go back, not frank so that adds somethings else to discuss.
as for the jack war that has started, (and i not by any stretch of the imagination a jack fan) but i agree with luthien that that...
"jack haters can bash him after the episode but maybe -just maybe- its better to wait and see the whole episode first."
i mean, we dont know how things will turn out, he might have a good reason for his actions. to be honest, i dont expect him to come off as anything other than an ass but i could be wrong, so i think we have to wait and see before judge him either. that goes for haters and lovers!! :) :) :)
@katieb--from my perspective, Locke gets bashed almost as much as Jack does...I guess who you notice getting bashed depends who your favorite character is.
I'd agree with that and I don't read everything in here so I guess I've missed the Locke bashing which is good because he's my favorite character after Jack and debating two characters would be exhausting. ; )
@katieb--for some reason most of the Locke-bashing seems to occur on the Polls page, and over at the Fuselage. In fact, I had to bail on the Fuselage because I was sick of hearing myself debate it. Ah well.
My second favorite character is Hurley, thankfully--no one ever hates on Hurley!
I don't know where this bashing is coming from... I see tow types of character: those that are good (or great) and those that are bad (or awful)... Ben, Jack & Locke are great character... I hate Jack... but he IS a great character. Sawyer & Hurley are good characters. Rose & Bernard are bad characters. To me, they bring nothing to the show... And Nikki & Paulo were awful characters... Fortunately (spell?) they been written out sooner than later.
Surly said...
I liked what Damon had to say in the podcast about why Jack is his favorite character: he's trying to be a leader in an impossible situation, and it sucks to be a leader: you're the focus of everyone's ire because you have to make all their choices for them, and you can't make the one that's right for everyone--it's statistically impossible. Having had no leadership experience my whole life, I was elected to the BOD of a sports organization last year. It was the most stressful year of my life. I ended up stepping down after one term because I really enjoy being liked, and everyone HATED me!
Everyone heaps hate upon Jack because he is in the position where one is the target for lots of hate. I'm not saying he doesn't have selfish reasons for doing the things he does, but as Locke said when Jack said he didn't want to be a leader, he couldn't, "and yet everyone treats you as if you are..."
Jack is in the ultimate Catch-22 situation. I am impressed with the way LOST lets him squirm and make bad decisions and live (or try avoid living) with the consequences of those decisions. I like that they made the main character so unlikeable in many ways. It's the part of the show that's realistic. It's awesome.
Surly, I couldn't agree more with you, but I say that is so difficult to people that like Jack, to write and read some posts!
Jack is misundestood almost the whole time! This people, call "Jack haters", can't think any good about this character. My idea is that if Jack goes back to island and if he do his best, even so, he will be judged!
But I admire what Darlton do with Jack! He is so etic, whorty and courageous that it makes me love him!
If Jack, Ben and Windmore are safe because the island chose them, it must mean something, isn't it?
I don't understand why Jack saying "don't go back to the Island" is such a bad act. If there is a leakage, they won't have a second chance if they go back. It's a decision between now or never, 0% vs. 5% rescue. There is no better choice. As a leader, Jack does the right thing. Sure Sun will feel differently but that's her feeling, not mine. I'm not Sun, I'm not Kate, I'm not Juliet. I think like Jack as a leader... Jack is not saving himself but saving the others on the helicopter. Sure it may the wrong decision within the overall storyline but given the existing circumstances, it's the right decision.
Poor Juliet! I bet she feels like a fool for ever putting her trust in Jack. He seems to have forgotten her like yesterday's news.
Yeah I'm sure Jack has forgotten all about Juliet right along with the rest of them. That's why he's drinking screwdrivers for breakfast, he's celebrating having found the ultimate way to dump a woman and never have to be bothered with her again. ; )
I like Jack and think his character is very true to life given the circumstances of his past.
I like him, but he gets on my nerves sometimes.
Sayid knows Daniel was going to continue taking people off the island using the raft while he went to look for Jack in the jungle. Sayid is with Jack on the helicopter. I don't see any reason why Sayid or even Kate, who told Sun to take Aaron to the boat and that she'd see them there, wouldn't tell Jack about Daniel taking the people on the beach to the freighter. Therefore, I think it's entirely possible Jack believes everyone else is off the island and waiting for them on the freighter when he tells Frank not to go back. For whatever reason, I doubt they will be, but Jack won't know it until it's already too late.
Well it part 1 of TNPLH, Jack seems to be the only one of the O6 who is at ease with the cover-up and being back in the real world. As for Jack's quickly developing addictive habits, I'd love to think that those developed out of guilt for leaving others behind. However SNBH seemed to reveal that what was really eating at Jack was just his insecurities pretaining to his daddy issus, and not so much the guilt afterall.
Like I said, poor Juliet! Hopefully Penny will be able to find the island and save the ones who where left behind.
bicbic said: Locke's voice sound so different when he says "just wait till you see what I'm about to do"
It's true! So different that in another Promo, when we still were not able to see him, I contradicted everybody and said it was Ben! As if his fans didn't know their man better =D
Well, by the time they were in the helicopter, perhaps Jack thought everybody from the beach had already been transported to the freighter... Now, seeing all those explosives, I just hope there were some left in the Island after all. That's why they sent all the redshirts first with Sun and Aaron. Probably Juliet, Charlotte and Daniel stayed behind.
@surly
It IS brave to portray Lost's leaders (Jack, Locke) as they do. People have trouble with flawed heroes; just look at the discussions here and on other forums. It's also something unusual for TV.
As an aside: my sport (actually my son's) is youth ice hockey. My decisions as a leader were received so badly that one parent sent me an anonymous threatening letter.
Sorry - back on track now...
@surly
It IS brave to portray Lost's leaders (Jack, Locke) as they do. People have trouble with flawed heroes; just look at the discussions here and on other forums. It's also something unusual for TV.
As an aside: my sport (actually my son's) is youth ice hockey. My decisions as a leader were received so badly that one parent sent me an anonymous threatening letter.
Sorry - back on track now...
@ SouthernBeauty
I think his "Daddy insecurities" may be more of a "remember the island" guilt issue. Where was the only place he had seen Christian before? The island.
I don't think there's a problem with flawed heros. Every one of the many heros on this show is flawed. That's not unique to Jack. The problem with discussing Jack is that we're allowed to say he's flawed, but we're apparently not allowed to entertain the negative implications of those flaws.
Do we have to accept that Jack becomes an addict out of guilt? I haven't seen that at all. I saw a man who was extremely comfortable lying and leaving others behind, who only started self medicating when his father's ghost forced him to deal again with his own personal issues. There's nothing in the onscreen story that tells me Jack is motivated by any guilt at all. Not so far anyway. It's an assumption that is unsupported in the story.
I don't get it... What's with the flawed heroe topic? There is not such a thing as a flawed heroe... BECAUSE, there is no Flaw at all... What I mean is, there is not in this world a single perfect person. It doesn't matter if it's a heroe, or a "regular" person, but there can't be a flawed person, because that would mean that there is a non-flawed person, and that, does not exist.
Just deal with the fact that the "heroes" in this show are simple persons who happen to be natural leaders, and they simply want the best for themselves, and the people they (seem to) care about.
I'm glad to see a few posters bringing up Juliet, because it's what I've been thinking about all along; she basically risks her life to help the losties when she tells them of the others' ambush plan. Then she saves Jack's life AGAIN with the surgery. Then he promptly leaves her behind without another thought.
I do hope that she survives the season, and ends up in some sort of leadership role along with Sawyer on the island. In fact, maybe those two can end up together after spending a few years together without the O6, and then Jack and Kate can choke on their jealousy when they come back in season 6 :)
@ Samus
I don't think you're supposed to accept that people are perfect. It's that people have flaws that keep them from being "good". For instance, Michael is not evil, he is just willing to kill (a flaw, albeit a huge one) to protect his son.
Every one of these people has flaws... that is why we call them flawed. It's ignorant (perhaps too strong a word) to dismiss the stupid things that each one does without saying, "Yes, this is a flaw."
Nice insight from TOQ on the Fuselage, about the way his and Jack's characters are written, and the basic differences between the two:
"I sometimes compare (the writers) to the ambituous dog walker who took too many clients; Occasionally his charges are gonna get tangled up. Locke appears to be that unfortunate mutt who has to smell everything, whereas Jack just wants to pull for home.......after peeing on the appropriate markers.
Love it.
I don't see that as a flaw. I don't see anything wrong with being willing to kill someone to get your son back... But I'll shut up because I know you'll never understand.
@ Samus
I don't think you need to be so crass with your comments. It wasn't as if I was attacking you or your ideas. I was simply trying to have an educated conversation with you. That being said, I'll add to our little dichotomy.
The flaw isn't in that Michael killed someone to get his son back, it was in who he killed. Ana-Lucia and Libby were (at that moment anyway) completely innocent. AL had even found her own inner-revelation right before giving the gun to Michael.
I would kill to protect my child as well, but not in the way that he did.
We all have our flaws, no matter how you look at it.
@Mike. Oops, sorry If I sounded a little (or a bit) crass, but I usually talk like that when I argue with someone. But I was trying to point that I just don't see the flaws, it's like I just don't "believe" in them. It's like religion (I won't go there, just to avoid this turning into something else), If I were Aheist, and I were trying to explian to you why I don't believe in God, and you were Christian, there were be no way for you to understand what I was sayin. I just looked at it that way. Sorry. I see what you meant, anyway.
I will try to add something to this without getting that much into the whole anti/pro Jack movement.
First when it comes to Jack, I like many fans of the show find Jack annoying at times and I do favor Sawyer to him probably because we are all more like Jack than we like to admit and would like to be more like Sawyer. Just thought I would throw some psychology in to this. We humans are so flawed, when put in such extreme circumstances we can't always make the best choices, it's easy to allow our pride, egos and flaws to effect our decisions even when we have the best of intentions. I think this is what TPTB are trying to show us with Jack's character and is so typical with the classic "Hero's Journey".
We are going to see Jack make some really bad choices, see him humbled and then I think, see his path to redemption. I will admit that Jack is not one of my favorite characters, but I do relate to him and I think we all get annoyed with him because there is a little of Jack in all of us.
As for why he is yelling not to go back to the island?
I have not read the spoilers for this episode, so I may be off on this but this is what I think is going on. I think that somehow, Jack and the rest of the O6 get on that chopper. I still have no idea how since they are all over the place, but this is my theory.
Somehow, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley, Sawyer get away with Frank on the chopper. I think, as they are getting away, Keamy's mercs may shoot at the chopper causing a "fuel leak?", but they get off the Island. Jack knows what is about to happen because we seen the preview with Lock telling Jack "Just watch what I'm about to do" he and Hurley know that the Island is about to "move", they get to the Freighter and they find out that once Keamy's signal from his pulse device loses contact when the Island moves, will set off the explosives and vaporize the ship.
They are stuck between where or what to do. Classic Catch 22.
I think that Frank? Or someone puts the life raft in the water but it will only support a certain amount of people, so someone makes a hard choice on who is going to get in the life raft and who is not. The O6, who we already know get in it. But Sawyer, Jin, Des and maybe Michael? decide they have to try and get the rest back to the Island so they head back to the Island just before it gets "moved".
Then the Island moves, Keamy's signal is cut, the ship explodes and that leaves the O6 in the life raft with no idea if the chopper made it back in time before the "Frozen Donkey Wheel" takes place. Anyone can figure the rest out from there. But I do think that Saywer, Jin and Frank at least do make it back to the Island but the O6 have no idea if they did or not in time so they suspect they did not. That is my theory at least.
@ Samus
That's fair. I like to believe I'm open to ideas, so I don't like to hear that I wouldn't understand, which might explain why I got slightly defensive myself.
You handled yourself well, however. I'm used to other people taking my comments as stab wounds and retaliating as such :)
And I can actually go with what you mean when you say you don't believe in the flaws. Your analogy to religion helped a lot with that.
@ sawyer hawking: I think you are exactly right in why Jack can be annoying, at least for me. I see some of his flaws are so similar to my own and it's uncomfortable to be reminded of that. I kind of felt the same way about Charlie at times, especially in relation to some of his behavior that was typical for an addict.
@ surly
Yeah! I love how TOQ can change his voice, but in that scene it still sounded too different from everything I've heard from him (and it's not little). Maybe it's just the cut that looks strange or Locke wanted to sound intimidating to Jack. We'll have to wait and see.
I know we don't know yet why Jack is saying not to go back to the island and we still have to wait 8 long days to know it (unless you run and read the major spoilers ;)
I'm still major spoilers free but I'm going to assume he says that because the island is going to move and, if they go back, there's a big chance they can't find the way to leave later. Remember the other promo, there, Ben says "If I were you, I'd run to be on that freighter within an hour"... I know Jack can be full of himself and annoying sometimes but I also think, most of the time, he does things with the best intentions in mind and right now I'm feeling sorry for him because he will carry all the weight on his shoulders and, as soon as they leave, he will start receiving a lot of punches. He will definitely learn the hard way.
Sockerock said:
"I mean, last week when someone wanted to discuss it they were told Jack is a fictional character who is only doing what the writers are having him do so you were basically a moron for wanting to discuss his behavior and actions and his motivations"
Yep, I've been told that too XD. That's the best argument some people find to give to some of us who can't seem to understand we're not dealing with real people ;)... well, I could also ask them why are they reading and posting then? I mean, as the characters, Lost is very much fictional too.
I think discussion over the characters and the story is always valid, there's no need to take things on a personal level. I mean, it's always fun to discuss and point out your opinion, agree with others or, defend your position. While there are no insults, everything's just fine, imo.
People want to know why every thread is about jack, let me tell you why:
Jack haters don't have properly functioning brains.
Everyone hating on Jack is making huge leaps in their assumptions about the flashforward scene between him and Kate where they talk about HIM.
YOU DO NOT KNOW who HIM is. You do not know what happens between this episode and that flashforward. You assume that Kate is going to do something for sawyer because you expect there to be tension between the three that are in the triangle, but Jack and Sawyer aren't at each others throats that way, they may come off at odds, but really they are in it together. Kate going off to do something for sawyer would not be a big deal to jack. But kate going off to do something for Locke, or Ben... THAT would be something to be angry about.
You all take this crap out of context and spin it the way you feel like spinning it, but there are a multitude of possibilities here, and Jack isn't necessarily as terrible a guy as you think.
I love all the characters, I even miss charlie a little.
@bicbic--See, my interpretation of his voice in the sneak is that it's sort of trembly with anticipation, like a kid on Christmas, or someone who thinks he's about to prove himself right in a big way...not really intimidating, more just barely contained excitement--literally, "look what I'm about to do! It's gonna be so cool!" Jack has been the number one disapprover of Locke, and here Locke thinks he's about to show Jack THE MIRACLE. I don't even think he's trying to intimidate Jack, I think he genuinely wants Jack to believe, not just cuz it'll be good for Locke to prove he's right, but because, like most proselytizers, he thinks it'll be good for the person he's about to convert to his way of thinking.
Got a big suspicion it'll blow up in his face though. I know how I react when Jehovah's Witnesses show up at my door. They might be excited, but I can't slam the door fast enough...
methosrocks said:
"For the record, it's not Jack telling Frank not to go back to the island that's the problem with his character. THAT is a tough leadership call and he has to make it. It's him throwing that "He chose to stay." crap about Sawyer in Kate's face that makes him loathesome, since Sawyer clearly made a choice at least as difficult as his own when he decided to make the sacrifice of jumping off so the rest of them would have a better chance of reaching safety."
We don't know how this all played out yet. Maybe Jack had justification for what he said about Sawyer. Who knows? I think he was playing the "I love you more than he does and this proves it" game with her. I can think of much more idiotic things that he could've have said drunk..... I think I'll wait to see what led up to that moment.
Gary said
"There's nothing in the onscreen story that tells me Jack is motivated by any guilt at all. Not so far anyway. It's an assumption that is unsupported in the story"
In TTLG Jack is in his apartment and he is sitting in a room drunk and in despair looking at al kinds of maps. It is pretty clear that he is looking for the island.He looks pretty guilt ridden in that scene to me. And this guilt doesn't seem to have anything to do with his "daddy issues"
From what we've seen so far Jack has gone at least 2 years without feeling any real guilt. He only becomes obsessed when the island/Christian starts getting to him. kate's no better though.
There's always going to be a reason to hate Jack if you look hard enough -- it's pretty easy right now -- but sooner or later he's going to get back to that point where he was in the Pilot when he became the hero. The writers just had to tear him down to his lowest point, but then he'll go on a path to redemption.
I guess it doesn't matter either way, if you like him or not, Jack is still one of the most important characters in the series.
From what we've seen so far Jack has gone at least 2 years without feeling any real guilt. He only becomes obsessed when the island/Christian starts getting to him. kate's no better though.
You don't know that, IMO he's been feeling guilty since he came back. I don't think they showed us Jack ingesting alcohol for breakfast so we'd think he's fine and he's not looked fine in any of the FFs.
@kmarg said:
I can´t believe that Sawyer jumps after Jack is screaming "don´t go back...". That would really make his quote "Sawyer chose to stay" sarcastic. And we can say many things abot him, but sarcastic?
See, I don't think it comes off as sarcastic. It seemed to be more an attempt to make a selfless act into something that was selfish. In the same breath he turns around saying Sawyer didn't save Kate, he[Jack] did to make himself the better man in Kate's eyes.
If Sawyer makes his decision to jump after Jack gives his order [in short, Sawyer feels Jack is going to get everyone killed in his obsession to escape the island unless he does something to stop it from happening], I don't think it's a truth Jack can deal with, so he's rewritten it in his mind. It could be why he seemed so comfortable with the big lie he made up, because believing the lie is the truth, is perferable to having to deal with the truth. In short, the lie wipes away the unpalatable truth he doesn't want to deal with.
I mean, of the three people they mentioned survived, but later died, Jack doesn't mention Sawyer. He makes out Kate to be the one who saved everyone's life, when it was really Sawyer on the helicopter and possibly Michael on the freighter. I mean, he devalues what Sawyer did in every way possible, including proclaiming that Sawyer selfishly and cowardly chose to stay.
To be honest, Sawyer has always been able to bring out an ugly side in Jack. It didn't take Jack much to get on the "let's torture Sawyer" bandwagon. He thought it was cute to make Sawyer think he had a brain tumor when all he needed was a pair of glasses. And I don't think he's ever gotten over the fact Kate chose Sawyer over him. In short, I think Jack needs to keep Sawyer in the little box he's put him in as a worthless, selfish lowlife, who Jack is so much better than.
So what he said about Sawyer choosing to stay is consistent with past behavior.
hatebox, he may have rewritten the big lie in his mind as the truth, because the truth and his own actions are something he can't deal with.
It really doesn't make him look good for it to take two years for him to finally go back, and I'm not even sure if the people he left behind is even the reason he does want to go back.
It's always bugged me why he went to Kate insisting they have to go back. Why does she have to go back with him. Why can't he go back on his own. And is she the only one he wants to go back with him?
Jack says this because he is the most stubborn jerk of a tv character I have ever seen. But eventually he will realize what Locke has been telling him since White Rabbit
@ methosrocks - "Sawyer clearly made a choice at least as difficult as his own when he decided to make the sacrifice of jumping off so the rest of them would have a better chance of reaching safety."
How can anyone make a judgment NOW about an episode that hasn't aired yet? Get a grip, people...I mean, geez... Let's just wait till after the epi airs to make our judgments, shall we?
If I didn't read the rantings of internet posters, I would have no idea there was such hatred of Jack out there in the hinterlands. I don't see it about any other character, and I think it does have something to do with him being the leader, main character and admittedly more plain vanilla than some others. And yes, he is also a maddening control freak, clearly.
But this "bad boy" fixation some have -- it's like women who fall in love with serial killers on Death Row. It's much easier and more interesting to be a redneck rebel who hoards all the medical supplies like Sawyer or a backstabbing traitor like Locke. People love you then! Yeah, ruin everyone's chances to get off the island by all means -- after all, you don't have the responsibility of being the leader so your actions don't have consequences, right? Oh, and... while we're at it, let's NOT push the button and see what happens, eh? Ha! That sure worked out well for ya... "I was wrong" you can always say!
"From what we've seen so far Jack has gone at least 2 years without feeling any real guilt. He only becomes obsessed when the island/Christian starts getting to him. kate's no better though."
I think Jack has shown plenty of guilt since they've been off the island. I think you could see the guilt in his face during the O6 press conference when Sun was talking about Jin. I think his guilt was showing by him adding vodka to his breakfast. I think he had extreme guilt after learning Claire was his sister, and this showed by him not wanting to see Aaron over this guilt. And his guilt continued after seeing Hurley, then seeing his dead father, and hearing Sawyer's name. All these things remind him of the island, and show the guilt he feels over what happened on the island. That's my opinion anyway, I feel he's showed plenty of guilt from the second they were rescued.
"From what we've seen so far Jack has gone at least 2 years without feeling any real guilt. He only becomes obsessed when the island/Christian starts getting to him. kate's no better though."
Everyone can judge motivation differently, but for many of us it is VERY clear that Jack is plagued by guilt over the decisions that allowed the O6 to live and others to stay. And his guilt has clearly gotten worse over the 2 years, going from gnawing at him to killing him. That's why he's so hard on himself (as usual), drinking and drugging and about to jump off a bridge till fate (or the Island) intervenes. And Kate... she's not only no better, she is far WORSE! Even when Jack says they have to go back, she says no.
The anti-Jack argument is really boring. Sockerock misconstrues the argument supporting the character. Everyone understands the man is stubborn and intense. Everyone understands Jack has made a lot of mistakes-- but, we have to look at these mistakes from his perspective. Jack doesn't have the privileged knowledge of the viewer. Nor does he have concrete knowledge of the Island's mysteriousness (unlike Rose, Locke, Hurley, and, to a lesser extent, Sawyer).
When Jack does something we consider stupid, he is doing it in what one would assume is a rational universe that is not bound by unknown supernatural laws ("the man of science"). However much the special nature of the Island is revealed to Jack, its acceptance relies on faith. You could say Jack's perception of the Island is tied to his desire to leave the Island, that his assessment is determined by the rules of the rational world.
His mistakes are much like that of the hapless hero who wanders down a dark corridor unknowing of its horrors, while his audience is well aware of what awaits.
So what makes him interesting? His battle with what he believes to be real versus what he is experiencing.
I don't think Jack is 'likable,' but I don't think Sawyer, Ben, nor Locke deserve that much admiration, either. All of them display the same harshness. The only difference is we can pity Sawyer and excuse Ben and Locke due to their exceptional position.
Summary: Jack screws up. That sucks, but why did he screw up? Will he redeem himself? How?If Jack didn't screw up, we don't have LOST. The how and why is absolutely integral to this story.
i would always think that jack would always but the other survivors before himself, and try his best to get them rescued,
but in that helicopter jack seemed scared like he had seen a ghost.
that must've been one hell of an experience in the orchid with locke, it seemed like he's running from the island the way hurley was running from those numbers or the getaway chase after he saw hurley
cant wait to see that what locke does to jack
I have to agree that we need to see the episode before we can make any judgements on events and motivation etc.
Great and interesting thoughts, crapdaniel.
I think sometimes about how we like the "bad boys" on TV. We can forgive a character tremendous crimes on the screen (and justify them!), but if faced in real life with a similar situation, we would probably not be so forgiving.
I agree with many of you here, and Crapdaniel, great post! I think you're right when you say:
"Jack doesn't have the privileged knowledge of the viewer."
That's exactly what I think everytime someone begins to bash a character (not only Jack): yes, we have to consider his/her personality, but I think it's preatty easy judging a character's action while sitting on our couch; but it's a totally different matter when it comes to the circumstances and the reasons why that character took a certain decision. These guys are continuously risking their life, they're afraid, a day you can trust someone and the day after you can't trust him/her anymore... if we consider the circumstances, then it's easier to understand, for instance, the dialogue between Jack and Sawyer of last week episode without thinking that they hate each other or that Jack is just an ass, IMHO (btw, I never thought that they hate each other; on the contrary I think that Jack now trusts Sawyer and viceversa, and that even when it comes to the "triangle" they never really blame each other, both aware that it's a decision that Kate has to take. But maybe I'm just biased necause I completely LOVE Jack/Sawyer interactions since season 1, LOL!)
I'm sorry but, are those the Lostfan108 spoilers about Sawyer jumping from the helicopter?
I've decided not to read them this year and staying clear of major spoilers and please say those are just speculations.
Great post crapdaniel!
It is nice to read some comments that are not about what an ass Jack is.
Sometimes I think he can't even tie his shoes without doing it wrong ;)
And I don't think he looks down on Sawyer. He might not always be okay with his actions but I think they have reached a level of mutual respect and trust.
Jack trusts Sawyer...
if he wouldnt trusted him he would never said that sawyer would protect kate... (the economist)
and Jack does care about Sawyer.
in NIP while he was speaking to Kate on the walkie talkie he asked if sawyer's ok a couple of times ...
writers always show us that jack and sawyer respect eachother...
and i guess thats why i was pretty upset when sawyer didnt show any concern for Jack in SIASL... IMO it was OOC and kinda ruined the Jawyer love for me...
but hey then they hugged and played ping pong LOL... its hard not to like them :))))
Great post, Luthien.
That's exaclt how I feel about them! :))
underorange posted:
I'm sorry but, are those the Lostfan108 spoilers about Sawyer jumping from the helicopter?
The spoiler about Sawyer jumping out because there are too many people is from a DocArzt asterisk puzzle from last weekend.
http://www.docarzt.com/lost-spoilers/lost-spoilers---no-place-like.php
The problem is that jack apologists think that i and others don't like him because he's flawed. Not at all. I don't like him because he's dull, which in fiction is a far greater sin. Maybe the next 2 seasons will redeem him, maybe not. It's certainly in my interest to like him since he's around a lot.
hatebox, I agree. I like flawed characters. Jack, however, bores me to tears. It also doesn't help that Jack [and Kate] never get called to account for their actions. That they both always get a free pass.
Poor Kate. She's suffered so much. She got a get out of jail card free, she's got money and a big house and she's raising someone else's child as her own, while Claire's mother is grieving for her daughter and doesn't know she has a grandson who rightly belongs with her.
It's the same with Jack. I won't hold my breath that Jack will ever be held accountable for allowing Kate to raise Aaron, when he knew Claire's mother was grieving for her daughter and having her grandson could have helped her. Or for whatever he did to get off the island. Jack was going to abandon everyone before by taking off in the submarine before Locke blew it up and no one called him to account. He used Juliet and he wasn't held accountable. And the list goes on.
I won't hold my breath that Jack will ever be held accountable for allowing Kate to raise Aaron, when he knew Claire's mother was grieving for her daughter and having her grandson could have helped her.
So Jack is supposed to stop telling whatever lie they are telling to soothe a grieving mother? Perhaps he should, but how can you suggest he should when we don't yet know WHY they are lying.
Judging by Jack's condition in TTLG I'd say he's holding himself accountable for all of it and while I'm sure some won't be satisified he's suffered enough until he successfully kills himself, to suggest that he's walking around happy and unaccountable is a stretch.
Jack was going to abandon everyone before by taking off in the submarine before Locke blew it up and no one called him to account. He used Juliet and he wasn't held accountable. And the list goes on.
So I guess Sawyer, Michael, Walt and Jin were also abandoning everyone when they left on the raft? That they weren't attempting to get off the island and bring back rescue? Did we hold them accountable for that selfish act? Of course we didn't because they were trying to get everyone rescued by getting of the island and bringing back help. Why is Jack jumping on an opportunity to do the same any different?
Jack used Juliet? They've actually been using one another since they met, but when exactly did Jack use her in a way that demand he be held accountable?
@hatebox--Actually, I thought Jack was real interesting in Season 1--at that point, it really was all about survival and he was one of the only people equipped to do anything about that. And his resentment and exhaustion in the face of being crowned the group's leader were pretty moving to me. Since then, not so much--he is a broken record. But so are many other characters--the writers just couldn't tread water that long until they got their end date and started writing a story with forward momentum again.
Maybe that's why I like ff hillbilly beard Jack--now that's progress! THAT guy is interesting to me!
"Jack haters don't have properly functioning brains."
Charming...
hatebox said...
"The problem is that jack apologists think that i and others don't like him because he's flawed. Not at all. I don't like him because he's dull, which in fiction is a far greater sin."
^Awesome post! You've hit the nail on the head.
Jack used Juliet? They've actually been using one another since they met, but when exactly did Jack use her in a way that demand he be held accountable?
I think the poster is referring to when he knowingly let her on after she told him she has feelings for him.
Anyways, from what I've seen I think that Jack mainly wants to go back for himself. To prove that he has what it takes. He learns about Claire relatively shortly after the rescue, and he still doesn't want to go back and is in a happy relationship with Kate years later. Doesn't sound to me like he's desperate to return for his poor little sister.
precious - exactly! thats the key point about jack. he is quite content living a happy life, knowing that he has a sister that he has left behind. i could never continue as if everything was all pefect and happy. i know he eventually starts to feel guilty and upset and wants to go back, but it comes years after, and to be honest, i think its too little to late. but what would i know. i dont have a "properly functioning brain". ;)
I think Jack wants off the island because that's what any sane individual in that situation would want.
I think that Jack's discontent and guilt is evident when he's sitting in the back of that cargo plane making sure they all know the story, still being the one that steps up and holds the group together, his expression after he responded to Sun, not that of a man who was happy and ready to just get on with his life.
I think Jack's behavior in the FFs show a man who is clearly disturbed by what has taken place, but is also feeling trapped and forced to do something that goes against every fiber in his being, but what he believes is the best for all involved.
His reaction to finding out Claire was his sister was not that of a man who is happy to move on with his life and just forget about her.
Jack appears to be a man that is living a lie and it is slowly eating away at him. He's put on this facade of normalcy while he's falling apart on the inside.
The question for me is why? Why would Jack suddenly become someone he never was? Why would he live a lie? What scares him so bad he's turned into a weakened shell of his former self?
Can't wait to find out!
Thank you katie, for saying all the things I don't have the energy to.
Couldn't agree more.
Nobody knows what happened. And whether you like Jack or not, I think it is obvious that his FFs are not about what an ass he is, but about the fact that something really awful and disturbing happened.
Something that made the lie necessary.
And I really, really hope we will find it out in this years finale.
We're not allowed to discuss Lostfan108's spoilers here, but if the reason his synopsis gave is the same reason jack is lying abut the island... it's a piss-poor reason.
@methosrocks
Thank you! I've been behind on everything but promos lol
@hatebox
I haven't read the spoilers. So I hope you are not right and there is more to it ;)
Otherwise I would be disappointed. Why should they tell everybody Aaron is Kate's Baby, if they are not trying to protect him or to hide something? Wouldn't make much sense imo. And I wouldn't like it.
We're not allowed to discuss Lostfan108's spoilers here, but if the reason his synopsis gave is the same reason jack is lying abut the island... it's a piss-poor reason.
I agree and does it seem logical to you that not only Jack, but also Sayid, Hurley, Kate and Sun would tell the same lie for the same piss-poor reason? Why would they? Are they suddenly so afraid of Jack that they'd be willing to go along with something like that? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.
It's Thursday...in one week we'll see the episode...
still too early for a sneak peek???
katieb20022001 said...
"I think that Jack's discontent and guilt is evident when he's sitting in the back of that cargo plane making sure they all know the story, still being the one that steps up and holds the group together, his expression after he responded to Sun, not that of a man who was happy and ready to just get on with his life."
My problem with this statement was that when we first saw the O6 in the back of that plane, everyone else look like they were in shock but Jack appeared to be peacefully resting. He wasn't guilt ridden. He didn't look worried or devastated. He looked very much at ease with the circustances of their rescue. If there appeared to be any reluctance at all with him, it was just in his determination not to let the other O6ers know how happy he was (in the midst of their grieve) to finally be going home.
I don't think that the reality of the situation ever sunk in with Jack until he met Claire's mom and learned that she was his sister. At that moment, he probably had a million questions which he was dying to ask but which he knew he would never be able to without giving up the truth. IMO that seemed to be the first time that it hit him that he still had an emotional tie to the island. The other O6 members seemed very much aware of their lost friendships and loved ones from the get go. But I don't think Jack felt it until he learned about Claire.
But even though I tend to gripe about Jack a lot more this season than I ever have before, I will say that I thought his scene with Claire's mom was one of the best of the season. And I am really hoping it will be guilt that sends him over the edge, rather than just his tired old, self-absorbed, daddy issues.
southernbeauty, that's what made that that scene so bizarre. The rest are in varying stages of shock, and he's almost chipper, declaring they'll talk to the press and making sure everyone knows the lie they're supposed to tell and if they get asked something they don't want to answer to just claim to be in shock and Sun reminds, "Jack, we are in shock."
It seems it only starts to get it when something touches him personally.
Isabelle, yes, unless we think sunshine shines out of Jack's butt, we don't have normal functioning brains.
What you said is the crux of the problem. It takes Jack years to want to go back. I also don't think he wants to go back because of Claire, because as far as he knows she's missing presumed dead. He also doesn't seem to want to go back to rescue anyone from his claim of flying on planes hoping they'll crash. If you crash on the island again, how are you going to save anyone.
It seems more like Jack wants to go back to the way things were on the island, because he know realizes how good he really had it there. I don't think he contemplates how the people he abandoned for years will greet him and that they may not welcome back their fearless leader.
@methosrocks
Thank you! I've been behind on everything but promos lol - underorange
You're welcome! I've been having trouble keeping up myself, so I totally sympathize. :)
Right now, with what we know in the series to date, I'm not holding it against anyone (including Jack) that they don't immediately want to go back to the island. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and figuring there must a reason for that. Either they think everyone is dead, or they have no clue how to get back to the island because it's been masked again... or moved altogether. Even by the time we get to TTLG and Jack very much WANTS to back, he has no idea how to do it. He's flying on random planes every weekend, hoping they crash. That's why I've never subscribed to the "Kate doesn't care about Sawyer -or anyone else- view just because she didn't jump at the idea of going back when Jack said they had to. He had no concrete workable plan to suggest about how they could get there. So I can't fault Kate for turning her back on the fly-on-random-planes-and-hope-they-crash plan, which is all he was proposing at that point.
I'm OK with waiting to see how that part of the story will develop. How do they find out there are people still back there... alive? How do they find the plan to get there? How do they organize the group to go back? In the meantime, however, I really, REALLY hope they will show us how the left-behinds are making out. What is their life like back on the island? I want to know THAT every bit as much as I want to see how the O6 come together to go back.
^ If they don't show us the Left-behinds every bit as much as the O6ers next season, I'll be both shocked and greatly disappointed. Like JH said on Kimmel, the island is still the main character--and from my prespective, that seems to be where the most interesting story and characters remain.
Jack says they made a mistake and Kate says, No we didn't in TTLG, am I remembering right?
So why does all the responsibility fall on Jack to immediately feel like they need to go back to the island and rescue everyone? (if that's even what it's all about, half of this discussion is probably going to be rendered null and void when we learn more)
Because whether or not you like him, it seems he is still viewed as the one who should be going about doing the rescuing, trying to atone for whatever reason he may or may not (we don't know yet)have played in Sawyer not being off the island.
People deal with events differently, maybe Jack put his shock and guilt on hold originally in order to get through all the press.
Not to mention that learning Claire was his sister (and that he had a sister) had more emotional implications than just the fact that she might still be on the island and they left. It was also a secret that was kept from him and his mother (most likely) that's pretty major. So I can give him some grace that it took awhile for him to want to see Aaron.
Just a few things I've noticed...
This comments section has an awful lot of comments about Jack, who apparantly to some here is a boring character. So I ask the question: If he is so boring then why are you still going on about him? Not trying to be too snarky, but seriously, this is a valid question.
Finally, I find it funny how some seem to really harp on Jacks lack of action, his mistakes, his lack of guilt etc. Every single one of the Oceanic 6 chose to cover things up for whatever reason. Why is it that Jack is the only one to be held accountable in some peoples view.
I guess what I am trying to say is that some times it would be nice to see a little less bickering and more of an objective debate :)
I see this again has turned into the same tired argument. I like both characters, but it's funny to me that Jack fans really like Sawyer as well, while Sawyer fans for the most part, hate Jack. It all seems to stem from the love triangle, and just gets old to read in every LOST discussion thread.
tj23
I know what you mean. I really enjoy all of the characters on Lost so I don't understand why some people seem to dislike some characters so much.
The Jack-haters* apparently have seen the finale and Season 5 and already know exactly why Jack lied, why he only wants to go back years later and that all the blame lies only with him. Amazing!
Usually if you don't like a character, you give your critical analysis and move on, but here, it's the same attacks over and over again. I can't tell whether this is just a serious case of insecurity and jealousy of Jack being the main character of Lost or that they secretly love him and only wish to look cool by constantly basing.
*Jack-hater is used here because the attacks go beyond mere criticism and are sprinkled with 4th grade language: jacka$$, douche, jack's butt, etc. Not to mention, they all call for Jack to die NOW.
Oh the sick haters, it's disgusting. Get a life and a doctor.
The Jack-haters* apparently have seen the finale and Season 5 and already know exactly why Jack lied, why he only wants to go back years later and that all the blame lies only with him. Amazing!
...or use your psych powers for something useful!
"Jack doesn't have the privileged knowledge of the viewer."
That's exactly what I think everytime someone begins to bash a character (not only Jack): yes, we have to consider his/her personality, but I think it's preatty easy judging a character's action while sitting on our couch; but it's a totally different matter when it comes to the circumstances and the reasons why that character took a certain decision.
Perfect!
Mojave, Queen Z, Penelope and Amy: i totally agree. Wonderful comments and it's nice to see some reasoning around here. It's funny and laughable to watch them building their denial wonderwall though!
queen z,
The answer to your question is in the posts immediately following yours. Any negative comment about Jack here is met with a personal attack on the POSTER, rather than a simple "I disagree, and here's why." related to the character/show.
I stay out of that, generally speaking, but it is tiresome to be repeatedly psychoanalyzed by Jack fans insisting they know what I think, and why I think it, better than I do.
katieb, amy, queen z, tj23, mojave, prettyeyes -- well said, and I agree with your comments!
methosrocks,
The Jack fans intolerance and nastiness in regards to anyone who doesn't worship their little tin god is pretty immature and ridiculous.
So far these groupies have declared:
You have the mental intelligence of a four year old if you don't worship their god.
Your brain doesn't function properly.
Of course, the more they say things like this, the more it appears their comments are more true about them themselves than the people their insulting and belittling in their devotion to a fictional character.
sockerockk said:
"I also don't think he (Jack) wants to go back because of Claire, because as far as he knows she's missing presumed dead. He also doesn't seem to want to go back to rescue anyone from his claim of flying on planes hoping they'll crash. If you crash on the island again, how are you going to save anyone."
I think Charile said to Hurley, "They need you."
I thought that was why they were going back. Maybe not. Can't wait to find out.
"The Jack fans intolerance and nastiness in regards to anyone who doesn't worship their little tin god is pretty immature and ridiculous."
I am not a Jack hater or fan. I think his character adds so much to the show that we all spend hours debating his useful or uselessness on the show.
I enjoy reading the debate. :)
oops, I meant sockerock. sorry for the mispelling.
sockerock said:
The Jack fans intolerance and nastiness in regards to anyone who doesn't worship their little tin god is pretty immature and ridiculous.
If you read Jack fans' posts carefully instead of vengefully, you'll see that they welcome critical analysis and hope you don't need to resort to immature posts and language to prove your point. Civil discussion goes a long way. :)
I think some on the island are trying to get help (Jack and Hurley - but they think they are crazy). I'm curious what else they try to get help from the O6. Getting to the island cannot be that hard because Danielle said the numbers brought her.
"If you read Jack fans' posts carefully instead of vengefully, you'll see that they welcome critical analysis and hope you don't need to resort to immature posts and language to prove your point. Civil discussion goes a long way. :)"
You might welcome critical analysis, and that is a good thing, but not all jack lovers are the same. Jack haters have been insulted by jack lovers in various ways purely because they dislike jack. This has happned twice in this thread:
"Jack haters don't have properly functioning brains."
"Oh the sick haters, it's disgusting. Get a life and a doctor."
charming isn't it? so basically people are not allowed to insult jack (a fictional character), but are allowed to insult fellow lost fans...weird.
and i am not getting at you personally here cos you seen alot nicer and more open minded, but alot of jack fans come across very nasty and offensive towards other lost fans and thats not nice at all. :)
^
I like both Jack and Sawyer, but honestly see most of the vile, offensive posts coming from Sawyer or "Skate" fans. Most Jack fans seem to be fans of Sawyer as well, while Sawyer fans hate Jack. I think you see a lot of Jack fans argue back, because frankly they are stuck listening to the same tired arguments thread after thread. It's tired and it's gotten real old.
tj23 - yeah, i agree, alot of sawyer fans dislike jack and made their opionions very clear and very known, whereas alot of jack fans hardly have a bad word to say about sawyer.
but i wasnt talking about insulting the characters, i was talking about insulting each other. that the real problem, and i see more of that coming from jack fans than sawyer fans. :)
just my opion of course, but i for one, a sawyer fan, no matter how i feel about jack, would never insult one of his fans in the way i have been insulted.
I see what you're saying, and from observing I see it go both ways. The comment above about Jack fans "devotion to a fictional character" was kind of the pot calling the kettle black and more than a litte condescending if you ask me.
It also is odd to me that many Sawyer or Sawyer/Kate fans seem to despise Matthew Fox as well. It's almost like they believe there is this real competition between Fox and Holloway and they can't differentiate MF the person, from Jack the character on LOST. Very strange, and again, just my perspective from reading a lot of posts on here.
I am a huge Josh Holloway/Sawyer fan and I like Matthew Fox as well, but Jack is not high on my list. However, I rarely if ever say anything about Jack here, even if I think it’s benign, for fear of it being misconstrued and then being personally attacked. The people who love and defend Jack here say they don’t do this, but they can’t speak for everyone and there are definitely some who do malign other posters who dare to say anything negative about him. There seems to be fanatics on both sides and to say that one side is worse than the other doesn’t really give one group a higher moral ground IMO. I wonder if the TPTB enjoy the rift in the fandom they have created by perpetuating the unending triangle. I’m sure if it wasn’t for that fans would not wage war to the degree they do. We could discuss Jack and Sawyer without there being a competition. I have never seen the same sort of viciousness toward people who discuss Locke, Sayid, Ben, Juliet or any other character on the show as there is when it is Jack, Sawyer or the infamous triangle. The level of intolerance for other people’s viewpoints constantly amazes me. Even though I am not a Jack fan (that could change, of course, as he has moved up on my list as Locke has moved down), he has an important role to play in getting the story told and I know he is not going away. In fact, I expect the last scene of the last episode to be about him (just as the first scene was). That said, I don’t see why I am less of a fan or less of a person because Jack is not my favorite character on the show. Well I’ve said my peace and probably more than I should have.
"It also is odd to me that many Sawyer or Sawyer/Kate fans seem to despise Matthew Fox as well."
personally, i love matthew fox! i think he is a great actor (and really hot!)and i was really excited about watching him in vantage point. i was like "so when is jack gonna get a flashback then" all the way through it! lol.
i love both fox and josh hollaway equally, but i just dislike jack as a character at the current time. i used to like him and i will again hopefully, but i definately think he has had a bad season. :)