It's looking like the Sawyer Centric spoilers that we broke recently are starting to be confirmed by other sources. Thanks to Lyly who spotted that Izzy from Spoilerfix in her weekly spoilerchat says that "multiple sources" confirm that the first episode will be Sawyer-centric.
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130 Comments:
Interesting, wonder if it's flash forward
i bet it's either a flash forward or the tampa job, although i'm not sure if the tampa job is worthy enough for a season premiere. also, if it's the tampa job they would prob want to bring back nathan fillion (kate's husband) since he was last seen processing the aftermath in left behind.
Looking forward to a Sawyer opener - I think it'll be quite hard-bitten.
I'm a bit annoyed by that as I feel as if it is a bit of an inapproriate time for him to have a centric episode! I think it should defintitely be a Desmond episode!
OoooK! I like it! Maybe Sawyer is going to be the hero I saw on him since first season! This is going to be James Ford's season and Josh Holloway the main actor.
A Sawyer centric premiere sounds awesome to me! It's probably a FF.
Awesome i want ro see the "Tampa Job"!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I like this spoiler.
It would be cool to see another Sawyer Centric. I think he has had only just 4 Centric episodes so far? To see The Tampa Job would be cool too. But I would have preferred the premiere to be either Ben,Desmond or even Danielle.
I hope it's a flashforward as the conman episodes have gotten boring and I really want see how he adjusts to civilization after all he's done. When we last saw Sawyer he was in a really bad place. After watching what he did to Tom, if I were Juliet I'd stay very close to Sayid until Jack gets back. I know people think this island is about redemption, but none of them are becoming better people, their darker sides, darkest tendencies are coming to the surface. Sawyer has become a cold-blooded murderer. Three months ago he needed a whole lot of liquor and a pep talk from Christian in order to pull the trigger and today he can look at a surrendering man and coldly pump a bullet into him. His adjustment back into civilization should be interesting.
WOOT! WOOT! A Sawyer centric episode. The obvious difficulties he is experiencing from killing his nemesis are a great reason for a season opener. How long til February?
" as the conman episodes have gotten boring".Well at least it's good it's not Jack centric because his flash back's is the most boring of all.And some are pathetic like "Stranger in a Strange Land" who is the worst episode ever with the worst flash back in lost history.but it will be good to see how he became drug addict and loser in the future.And for Sawyer he will finds his way again on the island im realy sure maybe already in the first episode!!!!!!!
I think they will show us that Sawyer met those guys on the boat before so he knows they are bad. While Jack can't ever believe he made a mistake and he will be bending over backward to help the bad guys take over.
This show is always about turning our assumptions upside down. Sawyer didn't become a coldblooded killer in the finale. He did what should have been done all along and stop playing along with evil people. We know Jack effed up bigtime from the ff, so now I think we are going to see how Jack's high opinion of himself leads him into screwing over the group, accidentaly but through his own weaknesses. While the guy we were first shown as the "bad" guy sees the situation for what it is. We saw that he is willing to die for his friends. Now it's going up to the next level.
It's also significant I think for Sawyer's central role in the story. A cool show like this shouldn't be giving us a literal type stereotypical hero like Jack. Another great sign that they won't be doing that, which fits in with them trying to be cutting edge and different.
And Izzy is realy sweet she's spoilers are always accurate!!!!!!!!!
Why does a thread about Sawyer and his flashback or flashforward turn into a Jack bash fest? What does any of it have to do with Jack? Why can you never discuss Sawyer without feeling the need to bring up Jack and your warped interpretation of the character? Does everything have to be a battle with you fan girls? Why is it always some bizzare fan girl competition to prove that Sawyer is better than Jack? Come on, just for once, try to make Sawyer stand on his own. Talk about Sawyer and leave Jack out of it. Resist the urge to bash and hate. Think you can do it or can the character not stand on his own in your mind?
The dichotomy between Jack and Sawyer is basic to the story. It's perfectly reasonable to discuss them in the same breath. Jack loving fanboys never miss a chance to take a shot at Sawyer, but get very upset when it's pointed out that maybe, just maybe, they showed us Jack as a disgusting drug addict in the future because maybe, just maybe, he screwed the pooch!
It's not heresy, we're only talking about make believe people. Jack's fanboys are going to have to deal with it eventually that something turned Jack into a junky loser. It's going to hurt, but it's going to happen.
At first logan if you are refering to me im not a fan girl im male lol!!!!!!!!! and Sawyer is olnly my favorite character that's all!!!!.and you are trying to bash Sawyer in every single way in your post's.And im olnly saying that is much better to see Sawyer flash back or flash foward then Jack which story line is over. we need just to see what happend to him that hi became drug addict and why Kate don't want to have any kind of relationship with him.And you are saying that Sawyer character can't stand on his own please!!!!!!.Just see the comments from Jack match up's from the character cup. and see that Jack fan's are not posting comments about Jack they are posting comments about Sawyer and try to bash him in every way. that is same for other's Lost forums the Jack fan's are not talking about Jack they are talking about Sawyer!!!!!!!.see Lost-Forum or better the Fuselage and you will see who character can't stand on his own!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm thrilled that Sawyer will get the season premiere! He's a fabulous, complex and compelling character, and Josh has put his heart and soul into playing him. AFAIC, they BOTH deserve the status that goes with launching a new season. I think this will be the year Sawyer steps up and evolves into a genuine hero and leader. Go Sawyer!
So, because I describe Sawyer in the way he was portrayed (murdering Tom in a very cold manner) I'm bashing him? Hulk, I don't talk about Sawyer and have no desire to bash him and would certainly never compare him to Jack or Sayid or Locke or any other male character on the show.
I never said the character couldn't stand on his own, I asked why his fans don't seem to think he can because they can never talk about him without bringing up Jack and bashing Jack in the process. Why is that?
I don't read the character cup comments. I mean how silly is it to put Jack or any character up against baby Aaron?
I do see that you couldn't even answer my question in any kind of calm, rational manner though which pretty much answers my question so thanks.
I am curious how the Sawyer character and all his bad past deeds, his selfish tendencies and all his baggage could ever hope to evolve into a genuine hero and leader though. Sawyer could possibly find a way to go out in a heroic manner, either through death or just by isolating himself, much like he knew the best thing he could do for his daughter was to provide for her financially and stay out her life. However, I'm not sure how he could ever become what he never has been and it be presented as believable. You don't just wake up one day and genuinely, without even thinking about it, start putting others ahead of yourself.
I hope it's a flashforward and I suspect we'll see that he's probably not fairing any better in civilization than Kate, Jack and the person in the coffin. I suspect that will be the case for all of them.
However, I'm not sure how he could ever become what he never has been and it be presented as believable. You don't just wake up one day and genuinely, without even thinking about it, start putting others ahead of yourself.
I guess you missed how he's already done that. When he tried to save Walt. When he swam through sharks to help Michael. When he went on the mission to get Walt back without question. When he kneeled in the dirt to die for Kate. When he went back on a suicide mission to rescue the men left on the beach. He's been growing into a hero all along, but I guess if you insist on seeing this as a really flat, traditional, black & white morality play, you would miss it.
YOu think all the characters will end up badly in the future? wow, pretty bleak. Kate looked perfectly fine. Of course she was freaked to have to be around an unwashed junky boozehound who she used to respect, but that doesn't mean she's doing terrible. Where's your evidence on that?
Doesn't it ever give you pause that the writers have always said they want to surprise us? Why do you keep expecting them to give us something ordinary and predictable? And you also expect something really depressing it seems.
Too bad I was too stupid to keep a copy of the prediction league on my hard drive.
You're right, methosrocks, how incredibly hard some people try to keep these characters pinned down into their season one characters. It almost makes you wonder why the writers bother to keep developing them in surprising and unexpected new ways.
I'm sure one of the reasons Sawyer has become so popular is because not only does he behave heroicaly, he doesn't want any glory for it. But maybe some people don't recognize a hero unless he's got a big flashing sign over his head and looks and acts just like every other conventional hero. It must make their heads hurt wondering what will happen when hero becomes junky. Having the killer become the hero would probably make those heads totally explode.
Oops responded to a deletion. Hate when that happens.
So, because I describe Sawyer in the way he was portrayed (murdering Tom in a very cold manner) I'm bashing him? Hulk, I don't talk about Sawyer and have no desire to bash him and would certainly never compare him to Jack or Sayid or Locke or any other male character on the show.
You seem to read Sawyer in the flattest and most superficial ways possible. Could that be due to simple bias? For example, you imply that the way he killed Tom and is somehow meant to show us he's "bad". You're completely ignoring the fact that this took place in the SAME EPISODE in which Patchy killed Charlie, Patchy being an Other to whom the Losties previously showed mercy. The Others were on that beach to take the women and kill the men who might get in the way, right in keeping with the way they've abducted and killed before. Killing Tom was the only only way Sawyer could ensure the future safety of his friends, since his knowledge of Tom's ruthlessness goes all the way back to the night he stole Walt and blew up the raft. IMO, The Losties victory on the beach marks the start of them FINALLY taking the threat posed by the Others seriously, and it was more than time they did.
I am curious how the Sawyer character and all his bad past deeds, his selfish tendencies and all his baggage could ever hope to evolve into a genuine hero and leader though. Sawyer could possibly find a way to go out in a heroic manner, either through death or just by isolating himself, much like he knew the best thing he could do for his daughter was to provide for her financially and stay out her life. However, I'm not sure how he could ever become what he never has been and it be presented as believable. You don't just wake up one day and genuinely, without even thinking about it, start putting others ahead of yourself.
With all due respect, if you can't see how see it, perhaps you haven't been paying attention? The show has gone to great pains to show us that Sawyer has developed ties to other Losties, thereby chipping away at his life-long alientation, and that he rises to the occasion of helping others quite often... he just doesn't want people pointing that out or having expectations from him that he's afraid he can't live up to. Now it's time for him to move to the next level, and teamed with Sayid for at least the beginning of season 4, I expect that's exactly what we're going to see.... those of interesting in looking, of course.
Sorry, faith - I deleted to repost because I had screwed up the quotes. :)
JACK SUCKS LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Now THAT'S how you write a cohesive and thorough argument.
Take note.
(p.s. the comment topic is about Sawyer)
Faith Said:
"He's been growing into a hero all along."
I have to agree with you here Faith. Ever since the beginning Sawyer has gone back and forth from selfish hoarding prick ("there's a new sheriff in town")to helpful nice guy (Cutting a new mast for Michael's raft, or going back for the shooters at the beach).
He was really starting to become a part of the team, especially after Hurley played the con on him. It was a real shock to see him finally face his nemesis at the Black Rock.
Killing the real Sawyer put James in a dark place and in my opinion kind of wrapped up his story. Kiling Tom at the beach was just icing on the cake, it was coming ever since the "line in the sand" speech by Tom(Zeke).
I think this is the last season for James Ford. He probably won't last through the first half of season 4.
I hope I'm wrong but since his redemption arc has come full circle I'm not sure where they have to go with his character.
That said, I'm looking forward to the season opener featuring Sawyer, especially since the season openers are always awesome.
Take note. If you bother to read this thread, "Jack sucks" is not the main topic.
What's with the Speech Control Police around here anyway?
It's always you that derails the treads on here. You are a royal pain in the arse.
Tell you what, you win, I'll bugger off and won't post here any more till you're banned (a few more comments comparing actors to mentally-challenged people should do it - a subject very close to my heart).
Someone give me a shout when that happy day arrives.
It should be Jack centric for me. I just like the way that the previous 3 seasons have all started with Jack centric episodes. If it isn't Jack I'd prefer it to be based on a new character.
since his redemption arc has come full circle
Don't understand how killing Cooper completes Sawyer's redemption. That would be a hollow redemption. Sawyer is more lost than he was before now that he realizes killing the real Sawyer was not fulfilling as he thought it would be. Instead of it being a positive defining moment, killing Cooper just placed Sawyer in a bad place. To find redemption he must make peace with what he has done in his life. Take Eko for example. Eko had made peace with his life and his actions and wouldn't apologize for it, that is finding redemption.......not the current place Sawyer it at.
I am sorry I dont want a Sawyer flashback. I can handle a FF but not another fb abt him conning someone. I want to know abt the others, Locke, Juliet and wtf did Jack do to make him go bonkers before I want to see Sawyer.In the finale thr wasnt even much of Sawyer (except him killing Tom) so it just would feel a disjointed to see him after the finale as he wasnt part of the others or the island equation.
Also whats the big deal abt the tampa job? The biggest surprise was the Cooper and Sawyer connection and I dont think the Tampa Job can top that Even the Cassidy and Kate connection was kinda lame.
Becoming a con man, probably so he could be in the same crowd and eventually help him find the original Sawyer.
Carrying around the letter he wrote as a child to the real Sawyer.
Taking the name of the man he was hunting.
Killing Frank Duckett because he thought he was the real Sawyer.
Finally catching up to and killing his nemesis.
Pretty much the entire reason for living his life.
It might not have been fullfilling or as you called it " a hollow redemption", but it still wrapped up his storyline.
Where does he have to go after this?
I think the writers will give James a hero's sendoff, maybe he can die a heroic death saving some or all of the losties against the evil boat people.
More likely, Frank Duckett's dying words will come true and "it will come back around" for James. He might be shot by mistake.
I have no other supporting info, But I stand by my comment, he will be gone by mid-season 4.
Mmm.......okay.
Sawyer doesn't want the glory, yet he boasts to the entire camp "Look at me! I'm in charge! I stole all the guns! There's a new sherrif in town so now you all have to look up to me!"
This of course led to guns falling into the wrong hands and the eventual deaths of Libby and Ana Lucia.
I'm bowing out now and keeping my fingers crossed for an exciting Sawyer-centric FF because the FBs for all of the main characters have become boring.
If Sawyer is gone by mid Season 4, whose photos will they use here in the US to promote the show? As far as mass media, advertising and promotions, this has been The Sawyer Show in the US for over a year now. I think that would basicaly be killing the goose who lays the golden eggs.
Aside from that, there's no way his story is wrapped up. Kate may be carrying his baby. He's on the beach and is probably going to be one of the first ones to face the bad guys. I think there is an entire new story arc starting for him. As Jack begins to fail and sell out the Losties to the bad guys (by accident), Sawyer will be the one who sees things the way they really are. That's my guess at this point. There's going to be a fight. We know Jack is going to mess up because we saw how guilty he feels. I think Sawyer is going to be the one who stands against him when he starts to cave.
Yes lets hope its a FF, no more fbs pls unless they pertain to what happened on the island. But I still like the jack centric openers as they always seem to mesh with the island story.
Excellent job at misreading again Logan. There he was looking for glory when he did the wrong thing. It's when he does the right thing, which he has done over and over, that he doesn't want any glory. He's messed up like that. He's the true flawed hero in this story. Not fake flaws, but real ones.
A cohesive and thorough argument means you address all the points, not just pick out the convenient one and misrepresent it.
I'm happy ^^ josh deserved it :)
A sawyer episode would be kewl to start off with, either way, the central plotline to continue involves the 3 Jack, Sawyer and Kate, so whoever they focus on will highly compliment the other 2.
Ok. Who cares ? I can't stand this crap. Nobody cares if Jack turns into a loser, or Sawyer becomes a Hero. Yea its kewl, but no its not something to insult OTHERS about (though I've insulted fans that simple can't respect a great show). Come on! I don't favor one or the other. I personally like Jack more than Sawyer because Jack is more like myself than Sawyer. But I'm not going to cry or feel bad to find out that Jack becomes a loser LOL This is a show, Jack is not my mentor neither a real life comparison. I don't base myself and my opinions on individual characters in a show.
I love Lost and the entirety of the show, EVERYTHING. I don't think Jack flashbacks were boring, only a necessary part of the story. I don't judge episodes to be less revealing, and that that matters because 1 episode is a chapter in the story and not every chapter will be the same.
Damon and Carleton did not cave about Nikki and Paulo, the audience totally disrespected and insulted the intelligence of the creators. We truly don't know the reason why Nikki and Paulo were brought in, but everyone keeps yapping about how they hope Damon and Carleton learned their lessons, um no. The fans were simple too hard on a show that wasn't hand feeding them.
Events plus pictures etc, do not dictate relationships between cast members and/or other directly associated individuals. We don't know the TRUTH, we are not there, all we here is rumours that COULD be totally false. Come on, please try to be more mature in comments about Lost, becasue this is no regular show and I wish that people would realize that and give respect where it is due.
I think we are not ready to know wether it's a fb or ff. If Darlton say it's a ff, it would be a huge spoiler meaning Sawyer survived the island! So even if they say it's a fb, i won't believe them... they will hide the truth until the episode is airing!
hatching23 Sawyer will not die because he is the most popular character on the show and everobody on the set loves Josh!!!!!!.And Evie saied if somebody of the main character will die she will miss Josh most!!!!!!!!!!.So i realy think Sawyer is safe maybe he will die but that will be in the last season last episode!!!!!!
First off I want to say I am a Jack fan. I like Sawyer too. Much more than I did before. There really isn't a character right now that I don't like.
Logan has a point though. A lot of Sawyer fans tend to bash Jack for no reason. They bring him into a topic about Sawyer for no reason.
Anyway. I wouldn't mind one bit if the season opener was about Sawyer. I would rather see a FF instead of FB, but either one is fine.
Sawyer has come a long way. That doesn't erase his past. How many families/lives has he ruined through years of conning. He murdered one man. He didn't have to kill Tom, but I don't hold it against him. He still has that bad guy in him.
I don't understand the hatred of Jack. Is he flawed? Hell yes, but show me an 815'er who isn't. He does nothing but try to help people. He was pushed into a leadership role he didn't want. He seems to get blamed for bringing the "bad guys" to the island. I didn't see anyone(outside of Locke and Ben) trying to stop him.
We have no idea what turned him into a drunk/junky in the future. Did something bad happen on island? Did people get left behind? Maybe he just realized that life was better there. Kate didn't seem to think they needed to go back. The one thing I disagree with is theory that he pulls a Michael to get off the island. I believe 100% that he would die before he did that. I believe Sawyer at this point would do the same.
One more thing Faith(not that this entire post was aimed at you) how has this become the Sawyer show. He isn't anymore the face of the show as Jack, Kate, Locke or even Ben. I tend to agree with the idea that his story may have come to an end.
Anyway, I have rambled on for too long. I'm can't wait for next February.
I was only talking about how it's advertised here in the US, magazine covers, photos with articles, etc. I get the impression a LOT of Dark's members are not Americans, so maybe they don't realize how popular he is here.
I didn't bash Jack. I mentioned in my first post how Sawyer having the opener could fit in to Jack's downfall, which we know is coming. It was a perfectly normal tangent to the topic. Jack's overzealous fans tend to defend him like he was their mother. That's not my fault. I won't go into it anymore, except to say Jack's fans really need to let other people have their opinions and state them openly with out bashing them personally. Any negative comments about Jack brings out their claws almost instantaneously.
I didn't mean just you. It was more for Sawyer fans in general.
I think Jack fans overreact because there is just such a strange hatred of a character who is a good guy. I will leave it at that.
I don't want a Sawyer-centric season premiere, ever. There is nothing crucial I wonder about Sawyer Especially after 9 months of hiatus, I need something crazy. Given the Season finale, Jack (Lost tradition), Locke, Ben or Desmond would be much more strong to kick off the new season. Also, I don't think the writers will be so quick to use FF in the premiere.
I hope they don't try to do the same trick twice and try to fool us into thinking it is a flashback but instead it is a flash forward.
I mean, come on. Talk about one trick pony technique.
Sawyer is amazing on the island, but off the island he is one of the most boring characters next to Jin and Sun's story.
But I am glad the season isn't starting off when another Jack centric episode. I've had enough.
Of Course Faith, they will lash back. You are insulting their favorite character in a show. You think they shouldn't be upset? or take offense?
We know you don't like the role of Jack, but this role is crucial to Lost.
If you was a stranded survivor on Lost Island and I was Jack, you'd be complaining about this and that and so forth, and everyone would just tell you to shut up. Jack, is a helper, that all I need to know. If he does some not so great things, or make a few not so great decisions then, I will chalk it up to everyone has weaknesses, everyone has flaws. But his intentions are in the right place.
Ken, Sawyer gets attacked constantly, sometimes legitimately, often stupidly. That doesn't give anyone the right to lash out at the person who hates him. That's what the Jack fans are doing.
I disagree with your other points, but that's not the topic here. Obviously I see Jack much differently than you. Guess what? I'm allowed!
I think it's shortsighted to say Sawyer isn't part of the Island story enough to merit a premiere. Obviously the writers don't think so and I'm sure they know how crucial this premiere is for the show criticaly, coming after the huge hiatus. I bet anything the men on the boat have a connection from Sawyer's past and that is why HE realizes they are bad. I also think, as I said at first in a perfectly legit point, Jack will feel the opposite. That will set up a Jack v. Sawyer conflict for the season, which I for one would totally dig watching.
Faith, I just think you are seeing Jack the way you want to see him. You are not giving the man a break, you are not being forgiving in any way?
Are you trying to say that Sawyer didn't deserve that treatment? Nevermind, I see where this is going and now I know why you dislike Jack and had chosen to like Sawyer even in season 1.
Its not that they don't think Sawyer is good enough for a premiere or anything like that! Faith, you are so stuck on the characters it is like you are living on the island too?
The Creators , TPTB will pick a centrical character that best matches the story they want to continue telling. So what is BEST to come next will come next, NOT what a fan might want because they seem to favor the characters individually from the show as a whole. So we differ on how we look at the show. Thats all
I very much doubt that we will see the men on the boat in the premiere. A question answered so fast? In Lost? Sawyer is not that important for me as a character. If he's got the premiere, his FB/FF better to reveal something important about the Island mystery, not something put there to show something characterwise.
Faith, I just think you are seeing Jack the way you want to see him. You are not giving the man a break, you are not being forgiving in any way?
Are you trying to say that Sawyer didn't deserve that treatment? Nevermind, I see where this is going and now I know why you dislike Jack and had chosen to like Sawyer even in season 1.
Its not that they don't think Sawyer is good enough for a premiere or anything like that! Faith, you are so stuck on the characters it is like you are living on the island too?
Again and again here you talk about ME and not my opinion. Do you even see the difference?
I don't like Jack because I don't like pompous arses. I also don't think he IS the central character, because this is not the show to HAVE a central character. I don't think Sawyer is the central character either, or should be.
I agree with you that what comes next will be what fits BEST. And now we know that's probably going to be Sawyer. So YAY. I only added my ideas how that could fit into the story and that somehow opened the floodgates to me being dissed as a fangirl (to which I responded in kind). It would not happen if Jack's fans could somehow manage to keep this on a less personal level and realize they don't need to CONTROL how other people enjoy the show.
ok Faith, you are a direct derivative of your opinion. It is YOUR opinion, therefore its how YOU think and how YOU are.
I'm going home now. Not even going to read the rest of your post. Because you don't stop. I made some very valid points over and over to be ignored or chosen to disagree when its LOGICAL.
I don't see opinions as everyone else. I see things as Logical and Illogical. Some opinions are Logical and make sense and others are not, some opinions are right and some are not. That is how I work, there is always a wrong and a right. Goodnight
Sawyer is an @$$hole. They should've killed him in episode 2.
If the premiere is really a Sawyer centric, I hope it's a flash forward and not a boring flashback like some episodes from season 3...
I ,too, had a feeling that Sawyer will be gone by the end of season 4 and I wouldn't mind it, to be honest..
This sucks, i hate Sawyer-centric episodes. If it is a FF won't change much. It's always the same stuff, Sawyer bores me to hell ¬¬.
This is fantastic news. I am glad a different character besides Jack gets to open the season. Obviously the writers have their reasons for choosing Sawyer. Jorge Garcia said the script was awesome, so I'm going to have faith that they've very specific reasons for choosing Sawyer as the focus for the premiere.
The duality between Jack and Sawyer has been in place since season one. Don't you remember all that talk of good twin/bad twin? Or the fact that Jack and Sawyer might be different sides of the same coin.
KATE: You're actually comparing yourself to Jack?
SAWYER: Difference between us ain't that big, Sweetheart. I guarantee you if he had survived a few more weeks on this island, you'd have figured that out.
Damon talked about it on the DVD's and even Matt Fox (more recently) has been quoted as saying that Sawyer has more good in him than he realises, and Jack has more bad.
These two characters have a thematic bond that is based on contrasts, and conflicts of interests and ideologies but also on commonalities too, and I do think the writers have always been aware of it and want to parallel their changing roles on the island in the overall story-arc.
I think Faith had a perfectly legitimate point that perhaps Jack may be initially gungho for the rescuers and Sawyer (with Sayid) will be suspicious. There was a spoiler rumour going around at the end of the season that there would be two factions of losties which would be split, one led by Jack the other by Sawyer. It's always possible that this rumour was true and will eventuate this season.
Of course, I am assuming that this will be resolved reasonably quickly and everyone will band together to face the threat eventually. But the conflict and drama could be on two separate points of view dividing the camp.
We already know that Jack is at rock bottom in the FF, and feels incredibly guilty and responsible for something to the point of being suicidal, cross drug addicted and willing to sacrifice planeloads of people. Is it so far of a stretch to speculate that perhaps he DID screw up, and through hubris would not listen to the others who did not want to trust the newcomers. To be fair, Locke and Ben are hardly people to trust, but there's the beauty of complex grey characters being truth tellers. I would assume more people are going to be skeptical of the rescuers though to support their claims.
Why else was the issue of leadership even introduced to Sawyer (of all people )by Hurley this last season. And that for once he actually embraced it. Methinks the writers want to continue to explore this issue this season.
I see things as Logical and Illogical. Some opinions are Logical and make sense and others are not, some opinions are right and some are not. That is how I work, there is always a wrong and a right.
I agree with you Ken. IMO, these Jack/Sawyer arguments are ridiculous because they are impulsives and irrationals.
I don't think they will start the season with a flashforward and any flashback should be about advancing the story rather than just more character revelations. The Tampa job went wrong and almost certainly involved betrayal and deception, this could easily be paralleled with happenings on the Island. Perhaps the group on the beach become suspicious when Desmond brings back the news that it is not Penny's boat. Sayid already had doubts about Naomi.
I agree with you Ken. IMO, these Jack/Sawyer arguments are ridiculous because they are impulsives and irrationals.
You're agreeing with Ken that HE gets to decide whose opinions are right or wrong? Because that's what he said.
You're agreeing with Ken that HE gets to decide whose opinions are right or wrong? Because that's what he said.
Yes, I agree with that Faith, there are always many interpretations of one story or character, but only ONE is the correct way to interpret it: is the way the writers have choosed to develop it. You are following your own opinion, but only one of us are right, and obviously IMO is mine the correct way.
I'm willing to reconsider my point of view with other people, but I think that you're not receptive to reconsider yours, so I don't want to waste my time.
SAWYER: Difference between us ain't that big, Sweetheart. I guarantee you if he had survived a few more weeks on this island, you'd have figured that out. Zoriah
Javier Grillo said right from the beginning that Jack/Sawyer was one of the most important axes on the show.
More than that, one of the producers (Damon, I think) said that Jack and Sawyer are like "flip sides of the same coin", only one grew up with everything and the other with nothing. It's the circumstances of their start in the world that account for the differences.
I'm boggled when people say they think Sawyer's story is somehow "resolved" and he should/will be killed off. I think it's quite the reverse. He's been trapped in his childhood tragedy all his life, had even lost his own humanity because he was so consumed with bitterness and anger, and ultimately with self-loathing for the waste of a human being he'd become. The letter to the real Sawyer was symbolic of all that.
Now, both the letter and the real Cooper have been eliminated. He's no longer weighted down by the burden of his past nor trapped by his anger and need for revenge. Finally, he can genuinely move forward toward reclaiming his humanity. The story of who Sawyer might become as a person has just begun.
I'm curious about something. For those who think Sawyer's story is "resolved" and he'll die soon, since Jack learned to "let go" in ATOTC, why aren't you predicting HIS death? As I said, just curious.
Since I'm attacked the minute I write a thing here, I wonder how anyone knows that I'm not receptive. I have read only a few posts on here that were logical, concise and expressed a well considered point of view - methosrocks, hatchling23 and zoriah. I disagreed with hatchling23 but respected the fact it was an honestly held pov.
The Jack zealots only attacked either me or the character. I didn't see one of them attempt to make a legitimate point. The attacks started simply because they didn't like my opinion that Jack will be the one who collaborates the enemy that is coming (because he misjudges them) while Sawyer will be the one who fights them. I don't think the Jack fans realize how poorly they present themselves. Perhaps they think that the mere fact of them preferring the "good" guy makes them automatically more correct.
If the episode is Sawyer's centric, it's better be a FF, or his connection with somebody from the boat.
The boat would be logical; new place, nice music, and their point of view of the crash. It's classic.
Otherwise, another Sawyer's FB would be really boring!
As for myself, I wouldn't mind if it started again with Desmond...Rousseau would be cool as well.
"...both the letter and the real Cooper have been eliminated. He's no longer weighted down by the burden of his past nor trapped by his anger and need for revenge. Finally, he can genuinely move forward toward reclaiming his humanity. The story of who Sawyer might become as a person has just begun. "
IMO, nobody can find humanity by killing someone. Remember Eko??? By killimg someone you hate, you may find your rage diminished but you loose a important good part of yourself in return. This is not a fresh start. This is self-destruction. Killing Tom also, though people cheer because Tom was bad, is not a good act by itself. So Sawyer is not going up. Of course as always he can do good things, be right about being suspicious but as a person he should NOT be able to forgive himself for killing people. I really don't want to see a LIGHT Sawyer anymore.
Light Sawyer? I thought it was called character development.
as a person he should NOT be able to forgive himself for killing people
Answeris42, why not? Sawyer has been shown to have a conscience, tormenting himself ever since he killed previously... what makes you think he should remain the same man and just suffer for what he has done? Giving himself a hard time over any of his wrongdoings is a sure thing with Sawyer. Perhaps it's about time he comes to terms with it, forgives himself and moves on, to better things.
I'm going to have faith that they've very specific reasons for choosing Sawyer as the focus for the premiere.
Great to hear the premiere of Season 4 will be Sawyer-centric. I can't wait to see if you're right Z, I wonder if Jack and Sawyer will be at odds with whatever the lowdown is in Lostie land... considering Sawyer is on the beach, and Jack at the radio tower. They'll most likely have different points of view (and perhaps understandably given their locations alone and for no further reasons I know of yet) on the 'rescuers' from the boat. Since Sawyer is on the beach, he may decide the best choice is to take action, which may well go against Jack's will. Sawyer has shown his fellow survivors that he does look out for them and he has displayed this more and more in recent times. I won't be surprised if he has quite a contingent of 'em right behind him if there's a split among their group. If not, he may well go against the general feeling but later be shown to have made the correct assumptions about the boat offshore. Most of the gang may not realise this until Des returns with Charlie's news about it not being Penny's boat, or until it is evident that the people on that boat are not a friendly lot at all.
As for Jack and Sawyer being the "flip sides of the same coin" as methosrocks pointed out, I recall Damon also speaking about the following as far back as in a clip about the making of Confidence Man. He was asking what if you've got a 'hero' but it turns out he's not that heroic [Jack shown on screen], and what if you've got a 'villain' [here Sawyer is shown on screen] but there's not that much of a villain in him (not exact quote)... makes one wonder doesn't it? Confidence Man was just the start of peeling back the many layers in Sawyer's character - we've seen a very complex person behind the initial face Sawyer shows most, I think we're still getting to know him, and it just keeps getting better and better. Can't wait to see what TPTB have in store for him, especially with the first epi back if it's central to his character.
I really can't believe people take "killing someone" so lightly. Previously he had killed 1 person. Now he killed 2 more. It doesn't matter that those two were bad people. Whatever the motivations are, killing someone, except in some cases for self-defense, should effect a person negatively not positively if the person has really goodness in himself/herself. If the Lost is about to give the message that "kill the people who destroys your life, save yourself", I will definitely give up watching the show. Anyway, that's not what I see after "The Brig". one thing is for sure, Sawyer is worse than before not because he's bad but because the goodness in himself doesn't like the killer Sawyer. Sawyer should not forgive himself because he has goodness inside.
I just wanted to say, that's my idea and perception. I don't wanna drag the issue. Let's wait for the next season and see where Sawyer's going.
Sawyer is a cold blooded murderer. Anyone who finds him attractive as a character is flawed.
He has killed 2 people in cold blood. FACT. and there is nothing you Sawyer Fanboys and Fangirls can say to defend that.
ugh. i stopped reading the comments the second that it turned into a 'who's better' compitition. they're both characters. no reason to hate either of them, and no reason to trash one to praise another.
to the actual spoiler-- while a sawyer episode is overdue, i don't think he should have the premier (and neither should jack). but whatever.... i'm in no position to judge until i've seen the episode. i don't really think there is too much backstory to tell with sawyer (i don't really see the neccessity of showing the tampa job... it would just seem like they're putting it in there so that it's explained.... just like jacks tattoo episode. once we understand a character enough, it becomes overkill to show every single thing that happens with the character, which is what happened with jack), so hopefully it's a flashforward, and hopefully, it's relavant to the story.
Sawyer opening the new season is great news. First of all, it makes perfect sense as the first episode will probably cover Desmond's return with the word of Charlie's death. Of the beach group, Hurley is likely to be the most affected by this.
Sawyer is in a bad place, but finding that Charlie died may reinforce with the beach group that killing Tom was completely justified. Sawyer is also surrounded by a group he trusts, Jin, Hurley and Sayid; at a time when he can use the support.
I think handing the season opener over to this character is a clear indication of how important he is to the over all Lost storyline. This is likely to set him up as one of the camp’s leaders, especially in light of the fact that he came back to the beach to help the men who have become his friends.
This flawed and damaged man just keeps growing and changing before our eyes and has become one of the most fully developed characters on Lost. The writers and Josh Holloway have taken us on an amazing journey with a provocative and original one-of-a-kind character who’s story is far from over and who’s final fate will no doubt surprise us all. The character deserves the season opener and Josh has more than earned it with the amazing job he has done bringing Sawyer to life.
Kudos to TPTB for recognizing that!
So I guess Kate isn't a murderer. Or Hurley. Or Desmond. Or Juliet. Sun. Locke. Heck, even Jack swore he'd kill Ben and Tom. The good doctor had the intent. Sawyer just beat him to it.
And, um, we're all flawed. Whether we like a murderous, fictional character or not.
' really can't believe people take "killing someone" so lightly'
I never said I take killing someone lightly, I most certainly never condone it, and please don't make out that I do from words I used to mean something else entirely. I'm fairly certain most people here don't condone killing someone either, since the vast majority of the human population don't do so.
Why should killing someone affect "a person negatively"? No, it shouldn't affect someone positively, but why want someone to remain the same person because of what they've done? Can't that person ever regret what he's done, just as a character on a TV show can do too? Since Sawyer already has been affected negatively after killing, perhaps it's time for the wheel to change for him? And by that, I don't mean he should be rewarded in some way for killing others. As I said before, perhaps he needs to come to terms with what he has done, because he does know exactly what he has done and does suffer for it in his own prison, and then he could move forward.
I don't believe this show has ever been about 'kill the people who destroys your life, save yourself' - not a message I get from it anyway and I'm sure they won't be starting to portray that idea either. Instead, I think it creates far more complex questions... whether intentionally or not I don't know.
I read a passage from a book recently called "Reading Like a Writer" by Francine Prose, and I think it's worthwhile to think about when it comes to Lost's characters, since they've been created by someone too. "What might hearten the beginning writer who feels compelled to create a succession of puppy-dog heroes and heroines is that masterpieces survive in which all that's expected of us is that we be interested in the characters, engaged by their fates, intrigued by their complexities, curious about what will happen to them next. Moreover, as you read these novels, you begin to see that writers have often found it a little too easy to make the reader sympathize with characters who are beautiful and true and good, a little too simple to make us care about the innocent and the charitable.
How much more of a challenge it is to attempt what Dostoyevsky accomplished in Crime and Punishment. We might not automatically expect to sympathize with Raskolnikov, a student who brutally kills two old women. So what an achievement it represents not only to make us care about him, but also to find ourselves hoping, just as he does, that he can be redeemed."
My point is, why do we judge certain characters the way we can do instantly and then never changing in our opinions, no matter how much more the character is revealed to us? I'm not willing to write off Sawyer, just because the writers continue to make me care about him, regardless of his past, recent or distant.
Kate: Yes, she is a murderer.
Hurley: Killed to save his friends.
Desmond: Accident. Not Murder. You need to learn the law.
Juliet: Killed to save her friends.
Locke: Yes, he is a murder.
Jack: Those are just words.
Jack's back story in ATOTC wasn't exactly essential to what was going on in the premiere, but they did a good job in showing character development that IMO was relevant to the situation: Jack not being in control and having to 'let go' to a degree. I will assume that whatever they give Sawyer for the centric will have parallels in what is happening on island in the present. Heck, it's gotta be better than learning about how Jack got his tattoos and stalked his asian fling. If it is the Tampa job, then I would presume we will see a contrast between what seemed a smooth mission turn into a disaster. This might parallel what seems like a rescue or contact with friendly people that ends in more betrayal and deceptions. Who knows at this point.
Let's see, off the top of my head...Kate, Charlie, Sun, Juliet, Locke, Michael, Ana Lucia, Sayid, Jin and Bernard (helping blow up the tents), Hurley, heck even Jack (for the marshall) have all killed people too. Not just Sawyer, Eko and Ben. They've had their reasons and their varying levels of guilt and remorse for their actions. Some of whom I would argue had far less remorse and regret over their actions than Sawyer has demonstrated.
Yes some have since died, but my point is that there are fans of all of these characters, who care about how they have developed and grown over the seasons. Should they also be condemned or only Sawyer fans?
Let me point out that some of the above also technically committed murder. And cold-blooded murder at that. Not to mention some of them also being liars, cheaters, torturers, manipulators, betrayers, defectors...
The beauty of Lost is that you can still identify with and sympathize with these characters, who are human and flawed in many ways. Who are not all perfect and good, but neither are they complete villains with no hope of ever becoming better people either.
this is absolutely the best news that we could recieve. Josh has earned this. For the past three seasons the same character has had the season opener and finally this practice seems to be changing.
Josh Holloway is a wonderful actor and has brought this most complex character to life. He has given "Sawyer" the largest fan base on the who, not to mention Sawyer's relationship with Kate and his metamorphosis into one of the camps leaders.
This is very, very good to see and I look forward to seeing it more.
And who did Sawyer kill Tom for? To save Vincent? Lol! And Juliet killed to save her friends?! What friends? You can't be referring to Kate and Sawyer. Nah. I won't even touch on that. The hilarity is too great.
Desmond, yes, he killed Kelvin accidentally. But it's still a death that he is responsible for. Why? Because Kelvin is no longer breathing.
And, please, spare me the 'just words' crock for Jack. If Tom was right infront of him and Jack had a firearm he would've shot the dude just like Sawyer did. Period.
And who did Sawyer kill Tom for? To save Vincent? Lol! And Juliet killed to save her friends?! What friends? You can't be referring to Kate and Sawyer. Nah. I won't even touch on that. The hilarity is too great.
Desmond, yes, he killed Kelvin accidentally. But it's still a death that he is responsible for. Why? Because Kelvin is no longer breathing.
And, please, spare me the 'just words' crock for Jack. If Tom was right infront of him and Jack had a firearm he would've shot the dude just like Sawyer did. Period.
"Sawyer is a cold blooded murderer. Anyone who finds him attractive as a character is flawed." - mememto
Way to pass judgement on the majority of the Lost fan base. Do you have anything to actually contribute to the discussion?
Sorry this is not a threadjack but.
This is the #1 Web Site for Lost Material in my mind at least BUT...Somebody needs to patrol these post better. I mean we get people that start arguments about Jack and their dislike for him and then people feel they need to defend him and this goes on over and over and over. My god this is a TV show with scripts, how could anybody take any of this that serious that they actually don't like a person ACTING on it.(Matthew Fox) The Shippers are just sickening. Are their not web sites for you to go to. I really hope that the people who really want to get into a real conversation about Episode 1 and Sawyer don't have to be subjected to the people who come on here just to start trouble and you know who you are. Myself I love every single character on this Great Show Lost BAR NONE!
Sorry please resume thread. :)
Will people quit with the attacking shippers in general? It's as bad as any other kind of attack IMO.
As if you can only be a legitimate Lost fan if you only talk ad nauseum about the Island myth-arc stuff. To be honest, I don't really care about Jacob or the four toed statue or temporal time travel resets. Others do, and that's fine by me.
I love many aspects of the show, but foremost I am invested in what happens to the characters and how they interact with each other. Some more than others obviously, but still, I believe my opinions are just as valid as anyone elses.
"Sawyer is a cold blooded murderer. Anyone who finds him attractive as a character is flawed." - mememto
This is an interesting statement. The name Ben could be used instead of Sawyer. How about Richard Alpert? What about Sun? Shall I continue?
Murder, along with Life and Death are themes in Lost involving most/all of the cast. There would be no Lost as we know it without those themes.
Zoriah your comments are true but in this thread it should not be a bash on anybody it should be about Sawyer and Episode 1 Season 4, (At least that's why I started reading it) not how much they dislike Jack or dislike Kate or Sawyer etc. Sometimes it's hard for people to have a conversation about any real topic without people starting trouble. It's actually troubling to find so many lost fans that argue with one another. If that's where it's going to go I'm out.
After killing the real Sawyer - it seems like he's not sure who he should be anymore. Can't wait to see where his story goes.
After killing the real Sawyer - it seems like he's not sure who he should be anymore. Can't wait to see where his story goes. darkstream
Exactly! He's been trapped in that headspace of hating original-Sawyer his whole life, and it had long since brought him to the point of sacrificing his own humanity and living in self-hatred. Now that man's gone. What next? His friends are still in jeopardy, and I suspect that will call forth the best in him.
His story has been compelling, and I'm really looking forward to the next developments in it.
Excuse me but did someone just say that liking Sawyer is a sign of bad character in the fan? Sheesh. I guess we can see where the sympathy for Jack's judgmental self righteousness comes from, can't we?
I know it's hard, especially for the self righteous, to look at this thing objectively, but the only people who "hijacked" this thread were the overzealous Jack fans who felt that my simple opinion had no right to be stated. It was the Jack fans that jumped in and made an argument out of it. As it pretty much always is. It does seem that the Jack fans feel they have ownership over the show, ownership over Dark's posting threads and even ownership over which opinions are allowed to be stated or considered legitimate.
A little honesty and self awareness would be welcome. There is no one "right" way to enjoy Lost. All the control freaks need to grab a reality check.
I for one don't mind Discussing matters. I must apologize for my huge rant above and above. I was venting about certain aspects and temporary conclusions that people come up with. About the treatment the Creators receive etc etc.
Sawyer Centric would be just as good as any. Sawyer is a troubled man on the island but who isn't? I personally found Sawyer to be the most easily hated character (role) on lost.
Complimenting that statement about whoever likes Sawyer must be flawed. The person was just stating it takes a not so nice person to like no so nice people, and nice people like nice people.
As fans discuss Sawyer, you can't compare him to every other or each other character on Lost. Each character is an individual responsible for their own actions in the story Lost. And everyone knows killing in self-defense is not nearly the same as killing in cold blood.
Lost can now get very interesting, the characters, the mythology, the possible time manipulation etc. Its all lost and its all good :-) Sawyer could go either way to me, he could become some type of heroine, or he could go the direct opposite and turn completely cold and isolated. I personally never noticed each start of each season was Jack centric. Its Lost, each and every character is important and plays a role. I just find too many people are pairing up with certain characters and not seeing the whole picture. But at the end of Season 3, I was concerned to have scene Sawyer shoot a surrending Tom in cold blood. Then I was concerned about all the losties, how many Losties have the Others killed? How many Others have the Losties killed? This is a concern for sure, but also a very interest plot. The others appear to us as being bad, but they actually are the good ones. The losties appear to be lost (lol) in themselves , or just becoming more confused, fearful, etc. Which is meddling with there true intentions. What a show.
The person was just stating it takes a not so nice person to like no so nice people, and nice people like nice people.
And this is a profoundly untrue statement, IMO. But enough of this.
Lost is a very complex show that has never judged its characters by the strict moral calculus a lot of fans like to bring to it. It's not about judgment. It's not a Judeo Christian metaphor. It's not a law and order documentary. It's a fiction about the human condition, where we are ALL hugely flawed, even though some of us try to pretend we're not.
OFF TOPIC, Faith how you think (your thinking patterns) dictate how you are, and how you may act. I mean everyone can like certain characters, but to honestly favour a not so nice guy over a nice guy means you are not so nice and this compliments the truth of , (You attract people who think like you and you are like you, you will repel people who are not like you, therefore your friends you make in life or people you click with in life, are quite similar to yourself. Its true
Ken, sorry, but that's just ridiculous. First of all, we're using your definition of "nice" and "not so nice". Which I completely disagree with. Second, you're saying that a person's entertainment preferences are the same as their real life characters. Do you enjoy playing video games that kill people? Does that mean you like to kill real people?
A character like Sawyer represents our humanity in the way we are so often victims of circumstances that form our lives, often for the worse, and put us in situations that bring out our darker nature. What makes Sawyer intriguing to people is that there is suspense about whether he will overcome his bad circumstances. We see that he is still violent, but he is also becoming very loyal and protective of people he cares about. For the first time in his cruelly damaged life, he is experiencing love and loyalty to others. It's much more fascinating to some of us to watch that kind of human drama than to watch a stuck up prig like Jack strut around and bark orders at people he seems to have no respect for. Other people do enjoy the stuck up prig type, but that does NOT make them better people. It only shows they have different taste in their fictional entertainment. They prefer the viewpoint of the Jack type, while others are repelled by it. Neither side is inherently right or wrong or better or worse. It's pretend.
ken - Sawyer could go either way to me, he could become some type of heroine,
The use of heroine, freudian mistake or on purpose? I always thought hero was gender neutral or male but heroine was female.
Faith, you do not understand. So you won't understand what I was trying to say, no matter how I say it. Its not LIKES and DISLIKES, its how you THINK. Nevermind ok.
Freckles, no it was a freudian mistake.
Cruelly damaged life?? Oh come on, we as humans decide on our paths to take. We do NOT blame others for our actions. Now I know what you mean, by how one is raised and the events that happen to him , shape his life. But its not going to shape one's personality and how they treat others (then thats just an excuse to be an idiot) Sawyer in Season 1 was a selfish, stupid man that could not understand the concept of crashed on an island with others, to know that they might not be saved or rescued soon. He hordes items he found from the crash as HIS OWN (pathetic) He is with people, that all crashed on this island, share, help and realize its not just ME MYSELF and I (in sawyer's eyes)
This is what I am talking about, and you approve of this guy, you defend the characters occasions when he picked on by Sayid and/or Jack for someone's medicine, and there are other occasions, birth control... This shows me that sawyer, the man, does not understand how to relate and be with other people.
Someone who likes this character, who enjoys them, to watch them. Hmmmmmm, I personally didn't enjoy watching Sawyer do the things he did, and his recent behaviour doesn't excuse him from his earlier behaviour.
So, I'll assume from this, Ken, that you also don't like Kate, Locke, Jin, Sun or Sayid. They've all done evil or bad things. And Jack is a doctor who tortured someone. So you approve of that. Do you like Hurley? Does that mean you condone overeating?
The circumstances I was talking about with Sawyer is that he witnessed his parents violent death at a very vulnerable age. Yes, he has to overcome that. But it's a hell of a lot more compelling than watching some rich doctor dude whine about his daddy's drinking problem and then become a junky himself.
I think you're just trapping yourself in your need to pass judgment on others. Whereas I don't think that's what this show has ever been about.
No Faith, you need to stop being defensive and realize that not everyone is out to get you. This is how you type.
Your first paragraph, you take what I said without completely understanding it and you turn it around pushing it in my face in a very unlogical way. Instead of seeing exactly what I said about sawyer, you generlize it and then you compare what I said to every other character on the show thats done a little bad stuff. You avoid the whole paragraph that I wrote about Sawyer being a complete dick in season 1. The other characters were not near a crappy as sawyer acted with the other stranded survivors.
Let me show you what I mean.
I did not like Sawyer much from the very beginning because he was being a selfish twit.
Jack I liked then, because he was there fore people (regardless of anything else)
Other characters, like Sayid (he's an ok guy because I liked how he treated others after the crash. Defending himself from the psychotic sawyer that goes blaming the iraqian for the plane crash, typical american ass response.
Don't start me on your precious sawyer ok. BUT, it does make a more interesting story, sawyer. Yes he is more interesting to watch, but to me he is not more interesting to favor, because his actions displayed were so pathetic to me. and I would believe to any decent, helpful and courteous individual.
Jack was always against torturing someone. Sayid convinced him so that they can get what Sawyer should be handing to them, for someone else. Lying about having it is even sicker.
Hmmm I would tend to favor the dude trying to help Shannon with her breathing, than the guy (faking to withhold medication for a kiss)
This is why I said I wasn't going to go into it before, when I first was stating about Sawyer, it may show alot about how you are, and how you think.
Ken, you need to stop lecturing other people. I'm finding logical holes all over your argument and yet you're implying your logic is somehow perfect.
Kate did a little bad stuff? She killed her own father for no reason other than that she didn't want to be related to him.
Sayid did a little bad stuff? His entire career involved torturing people and terrorism.
Jin did a little bad stuff? He beat innocent people up for money.
And so on and so forth. And Jack, a doctor, was very much an accessory to torture, for which there is NO ethical defense.
You are not required to like Sawyer any more than I'm required to like Jack. You aren't even required to move with the times and move your perceptions out of Season One. This is an entertainment for our enjoyment. Therefore you have no right at all to pass judgment on other fans for what they like to watch, especially not to the point of saying they can't be good people if they enjoy watching less than good people on tv. It's absurd.
ethical defense? You see things the WAY YOU WANT TO and THATS IT.
Ken, you ever seen Scarface? Awesome movie. I loved Tony Montana. Even after he shot and killed his best pal Manolo. Does that make me a bad person?
Children, please. Let's not turn this into another Jate/Skate Fuselage-esque bitchfest. We're all sick of it there and no one wants to see it here.
" Sawyer beening a complete dick in season 1".Ken see the comments from Damon about "Confidense Man" search on YouTube. maybe then you will see why Sawyer was acting in that way.And i better be fan boy of con man then fan boy of man who is self obsessed with his pathetic complex that he is the hero on the island.And who is chasing his ex-wife in his pathetic flashbacks behaving like a maniac.And it's realy sad to see your hero that is a junky who want's to end his life and that Kate feel sory for him that he become a loser with no purpose in his life.Oh yes i forgot he have purpose to go back to the island. because he screw up with the rescue call!!!!!!!!!!
don't care Hulk, I know what Sawyer is like, I know why he did what he did, and I don't wish to read write ups or youtube footage to be proven otherwise. People who like Sawyer, like him. But don't try to give excuse for his actions to get others to like him. sorry.
And I am a fan of Lost, not just one character ok. I can't possible understand or imagine watching a show and having a idol on it, it would decrease the pleasure of the rest of the show, and 1 character = 1% of Lost to me.
I don't know Crystal. but I do not that bad people don't publicize themselves. But when you say you LOVED Tony Montana, you are saying you liked him in that movie as an Actor. Yes I saw the movie, can never watch it all at once, but its a great movie.
But I don't think you liked each and every actin he did. Each shot, murder, etc. What I was trying to explain before is that, we attract people like ourselves, if you are a pot head (per say) most likely you will attract alot of people that want to smoke up, and probably won't attract miss prissy in the library? See what I am saying? You attract people that think like you think. For instance, you are at the store getting some beverages or something, and you see someone else that does exactly what you do when you crap a pop or you crap the same pop for a certain reason. You two think alike, therefore have things to talk about and therefore become acquinted. Now maybe I mushed this up when using it to compare to what people like in characters of a show. Its kewl and you will enjoy to see someone get killed a kewl way. But you really aren't enjoying the fact that that person was killed, just the kewl way he was killed, which if you were there you wouldn't think it was kewl, because it would be your real life.
When you see someone a character in a show performing in a not so gracious way, I immediately compare that to how I would act. And I would not act this way. Because I would be nice, to others.
So I guess I am saying, that people who liked these things he did, must condone it and therefore must be a bit like that.
Clear now?
Sorry, meant you liked him as that character (acting the part)
I don't condone everything Sawyer does. But he's still a character I love. It's just a preference. Nothing more, nothing less.
Ken, don't want to argue with you. My attraction to Sawyer comes from the fact that people like him can change and when they do it is a beautiful thing. Sawyer was changing til he killed Cooper. Yes, a set back, but Sawyer can get back on course and continue to change. Maybe he won't, either way it will be interesting to watch. Brillant move by the writers.
I can see that being a beautiful thing, yes. A mean person becoming kind and warm. That is awesome and I do hope he can do it.
Crystal, thanks for not pouncing on my almost confusing explanations lol. I understand what you mean, you enjoyed watching Tony without comparing yourself to him. But I seem to have a tendency to compare myself and what I would do in that characters situation. I find it really fun that way, because then I am yelling at the TV screem (NOOOO don't open the hatchhhh AHHHH!) lol I wouldn't lol.
I guess not everyone does this. And then I decide to like or dislike that character. I see how they are, and if I completely disagree with their actions, I dislike the character. But I guess its still fun to watch :-)
i hate to be the one to point this out, but faith, you say that the 'jack fanboys' (the expression fanboys makes me cringe) high jacked this thread making it a jack/sawyer debate, but you're the one that started it all. people were saying 'a saywer ff sounds really cool', and then you started off saying 'the jack fanboys are gonna have to get over this'
i'm not a jack fanboy... i find him to be a bit of a twit, but i think your whole jack/sawyer logicality doesn't really make sense.
The thing is that we didn't have a Sawyer's centric a
till episode 4 S3 and his fans deserve one and I like Sawyer cause he can be nice, furious, lovely, unfriendly, savage,gentle...
"He's a complex guy sweetheart"
:)
Nope, totally untrue, ackermaniv
Here's my first post, which you can go up and read in full:
I think they will show us that Sawyer met those guys on the boat before so he knows they are bad. While Jack can't ever believe he made a mistake and he will be bending over backward to help the bad guys take over... etc...Another great sign that they won't be doing that, which fits in with them trying to be cutting edge and different.
Followed by Logan's insult:
Why does a thread about Sawyer and his flashback or flashforward turn into a Jack bash fest? What does any of it have to do with Jack? Why can you never discuss Sawyer without feeling the need to bring up Jack and your warped interpretation of the character? Does everything have to be a battle with you fan girls? Why is it always some bizzare fan girl competition to prove that Sawyer is better than Jack?
Followed by my post:
The dichotomy between Jack and Sawyer is basic to the story...etc. ... Jack's fanboys are going to have to deal with it eventually that something turned Jack into a junky loser. It's going to hurt, but it's going to happen.
Insults against the "fangirls" go right over people's heads,it seems. It's just assumed and accepted that the female fans of Sawyer are airheads, despite all the obvious evidence that it's quite the opposite. For some reason, the male Jack fans think they should be immune from criticism for their parallel type behavior.
Reading this thread, it actually astonishes me that the boys on here think they are the "logical" ones. It's pretty striking how untrue that really is. I think it's time the male fans stopped insulting the women and dismissing their preferences. That's where the nastiness started here, and almost always where it starts. Most of the guys aren't bringing as much to the party as they claim to be, yet too many feel they have carte blanche to insult women fans with impunity.
I can imagine the word fanboy makes you cringe. It doesn't feel any better being called a fangirl. I wonder why there's never any outcry over that.
Complimenting that statement about whoever likes Sawyer must be flawed. The person was just stating it takes a not so nice person to like no so nice people, and nice people like nice people.
Let me just chime in and agree that I believe this is a completely fallacious statement.
I'm a law abiding, happy married, pacifist liberal who grew up in a social welfare state. I probably couldn't lie to save myself. I can't even kill bugs without cringing and feeling guilty as hell.
And yet I love Sawyer.
We're talking about fictional characters here. And people have varying tastes on what kind of individual characters appeal to them, depending on the story.
I cannot believe that there are assertions here that the kind of entertainment characters people like is somehow an indication of their morality or their mental thought processes.
I happen to also like Jack Sparrow. Does that make me an advocate for lawless pirating and drunkenness?
Harry Potter spoilers:
I have always adored Severus Snape as an incredibly flawed, unlikable character who was mean and bitter but he proved that he was loyal to the very end and on the side of good. Does that mean that by default I condone teachers bullying their students? Or that I believe that you don't have to be a nice person to be a good person. Or that I happen to like fictional characters with big noses and greasy hair?
What about the fans of Dumbledore who was revealed to be a much more self-aggrandizing, ruthless and manipulative character by the end (luckily he was self aware enough to regret this). If they believed that DD was the second christ does that mean they were deluded?
My favourite characters on Buffy were Spike and Anya. Does that mean I want to be a reformed vampire/demon? Or that I like Manchester United, having lots of sex, and getting my vengeance on?
Sawyer is one of my fave characters. But so is Hurley, who as I recall has been one of the nicest and most innocuous characters on the show. What does that say about my character and thinking, hmm?
How about the character from V for Vendetta. Where do you stand with him? Essentially he is a terrorist but also a freedom fighter and idealist.
Or Rorschach vs Ozymandius in the Watchman? Arguably Rorschach is the mean son of a bleep who is twisted and unlikable and yet he's the one who takes a moral stand against Ozymandius' 'benevolent' vision of the future that involves the death of millions.
There are fans of Ben and Locke. Both characters have performed some very questionable things. Ben helped commit genocide for example. Does that mean his avid fans condone such acts themselves, or that they should feel ashamed for rooting for him anyway?
Come on, let's get realistic about it. You can love and appreciate flawed fictional characters who struggle (and possibly falter) with their humanity and not be that kind of person. It's pretty ridiculous to assume otherwise.
I'm not even sure why I replied to this assertion because quite frankly the answer is IMO self evident.
well, not to be mean, but when you start pissing over one character for the 'betterment' of another character, i would tend to think that something like that is 'fan-boy'-like (as much as i hate the word)
all that logan said is that he didn't see why a thread on this had to turn into the sawyer v jack bashing that you, i'm sorry to say, started. rather than just say, 'oh boy a sawyer episode will be great' you had to dig in and start bashing on jack for whatever reason.
you then made the following comment in your next post:
"It's not heresy, we're only talking about make believe people. Jack's fanboys are going to have to deal with it eventually that something turned Jack into a junky loser. It's going to hurt, but it's going to happen."
whether you don't like what logan said or not, he was not making the argument from the perspective of what you call a 'fan boy' (which, i've seen you use the expression before logan said fangirl), he was merely saying that he didn't want it to turn into some online battle, which again, you sort of started with those posts.
i am not of the opinion that one of the two characters is 'better' and i don't think that someone's taste in a character is a reflection of who they are, but rather why they prefer to see in a character.
No, ackermaniv, if you will read my post, I was only surmising what the Sawyer centric episode might signify to the overall story. Are we allowed to speculate freely here or must we always be careful not to step on the toes of the Jack fans?
Sawyer gets bashed freely around here. As do his fans. It seems that an argument only breaks out when a male Jackophile (like that better?) feels his hero has been dissed. It's very similar to how you managed to justify Logan's entirely unwarranted and sexist attack on me.
I realize Fanboy is not a compliment. However it's a well defined enough term that there's a film coming out with that title this fall. I think we all know what it is when we see it. I see it constantly around here, but I (at least lately) have not used the term except in self defense.
I don't like all the characters equally. As far as I know, that's not a requirement for watching the show OR for posting about it. And I don't know why certain fans feel they have the right to dictate what can and can't be said ... about the characters...while feeling it's perfectly cool to insult fans when they break these unwritten (and nonexistent) rules.
I didn't start anything on here. I stated my opinion without insulting anyone. It's clear who turned it into an argument.
I need to speak up in support of Faith here. And since people are not going back and reading the posts in order, and are just making assumptions, here they are:
Logan: I hope it's a flashforward as the conman episodes have gotten boring and I really want see how he adjusts to civilization after all he's done. When we last saw Sawyer he was in a really bad place. After watching what he did to Tom, if I were Juliet I'd stay very close to Sayid until Jack gets back. I know people think this island is about redemption, but none of them are becoming better people, their darker sides, darkest tendencies are coming to the surface. Sawyer has become a cold-blooded murderer. Three months ago he needed a whole lot of liquor and a pep talk from Christian in order to pull the trigger and today he can look at a surrendering man and coldly pump a bullet into him. His adjustment back into civilization should be interesting.
Faith: I think they will show us that Sawyer met those guys on the boat before so he knows they are bad. While Jack can't ever believe he made a mistake and he will be bending over backward to help the bad guys take over.
This show is always about turning our assumptions upside down. Sawyer didn't become a coldblooded killer in the finale. He did what should have been done all along and stop playing along with evil people. We know Jack effed up bigtime from the ff, so now I think we are going to see how Jack's high opinion of himself leads him into screwing over the group, accidentaly but through his own weaknesses. While the guy we were first shown as the "bad" guy sees the situation for what it is. We saw that he is willing to die for his friends. Now it's going up to the next level.
It's also significant I think for Sawyer's central role in the story. A cool show like this shouldn't be giving us a literal type stereotypical hero like Jack. Another great sign that they won't be doing that, which fits in with them trying to be cutting edge and different.
Logan: Why does a thread about Sawyer and his flashback or flashforward turn into a Jack bash fest? What does any of it have to do with Jack? Why can you never discuss Sawyer without feeling the need to bring up Jack and your warped interpretation of the character? Does everything have to be a battle with you fan girls? Why is it always some bizzare fan girl competition to prove that Sawyer is better than Jack? Come on, just for once, try to make Sawyer stand on his own. Talk about Sawyer and leave Jack out of it. Resist the urge to bash and hate. Think you can do it or can the character not stand on his own in your mind?
Faith started it? Nope. Look again. I think it's pretty clear who started in with the personal attacks (e.g. derogatory Fan girl labelling, and the 'what is it with you people' attitude). Who took offense at supposed Jack-bashing when in fact Faith was merely speculating on the premiere episode and how it might relate to the flash forward and events we already know about.
She was responding to Logan's initial speculation, and she was entitled to give her opinion and disagree. Or are we not allowed to disagree (especially if it's in defense of Sawyer or at the expense of Jack?).
And she explained why she thought that the duality between Sawyer and Jack, and the growing parallels may be important to the show. And I and others here have provided back up on that theory from the PTB's own mouths on the idea that Jack and Sawyer's story arcs (which touch upon different kinds of heroism and leadership) may be more connected/contrasting than you might think. It's as valid a theory as any other I've seen presented on this site.
Just for the record, I don't believe Kate has come into it much at all in the thread discussion, and yet I see still shipper attacks also coming out in full force.
I'm a geek and a shipper, and a Lost fan-girl and I'm proud.
I should think that Dark wants all kinds of Lost fans to come to his site and participate and discuss the show. And that's what we're doing.
now i don't read all of the comments, but i really don't see too many people bashing sawyer. if anything, people bash on jack.... i don't really care or anything, i just don't see the need
what i really don't like, however, is the attitude that you have towards jack, when you harbor the same attitude towards sawyer that others may have towards the 'jack fanboys'
now i don't read all of the comments, but i really don't see too many people bashing sawyer. if anything, people bash on jack.... i don't really care or anything, i just don't see the need
I see the same ol' argument made over and over again. It seems that Jack fans always accuse others of bashing Jack (which I didn't see any of here, just the accusations of it because Faith speculated what may happen in S4) and stating at the same time that no one bashes Sawyer. What a joke. Perhaps you should read all the comments here ackermaniv, before you say you don't see others bash Sawyer. It does seem that Jack should be protected no matter what, doesn't it? God forbid anyone dislike him. So, do you and Logan only insult others if they disagree with what you think and say? Going by Ken's logic, what type of character does that make Jack's fans?
Wow
121 post!!!
The opposite of love is NOT hate, it's indifference. And I can´t find it here. And this is is good.
And about this topic, for me, after the season finale it would have sense that the first episode would be a Locke or Sawyer centric, but who knows.
what in gods name are you on about? i didn't say people can or can't bash jack, and i didn't say people can or can't bash sawyer. and i honestly don't care. what bothers me is hipocracy, when people say 'it's okay for me to bash so and so, but it's not okay for someone else to bash so and so', which is exactly what happens whenever i see faith make a comment on this site. i try to stay away from it for the most part, but i often see comment threads get dominated by faith's opinion that sawyer is the be-all-and-end-all and that jack is the scum of the earth.
i don't think someone's opinion on a character as a tv show has anything to do with that person's own character, and i don't think that sawyer is an inherently bad person, and i don't think jack is some type of hero. jeez.... i do like sawyer better than jack.
and i don't inslut people if i disagree with their opinion. i do, however, point out if someone's way of thinking is as one-sided as faith's.
I've been hanging back, but really... Jack certainly gets his fair share of criticism, here and everywhere else that isn't the Fuselage. However, the response here is not to criticize Sawyer, but rather to trash his fans. Logan1858 routinely reacts to criticism of Jack by bashing Sawyer fans. Ken thinks Sawyer fans are somehow morally inferior - and says so repeatedly - and nobody but the Sawyer fans he's attacking bothers to point out the sheer idiocy of the assumption that only morally "good" fictional characters (by HIS defininition, no less) should be liked. Add to that the dismissive tone toward Sawyer fans generally, with the insulting assumption that if we like the character it's only because we must be "shippers" (as though THAT were a dirty word in itself) and nothing we say has any weight because of it.
Sawyer's a complex character, a fabulous redemption story in the making, and an entertaining part of this show. His fans are here to stay, and they have as much to say, and put as much thought into the show, as anybody else IMO.
And if I also happen to think that Jack is an arrogant, irritating pain in the butt, I'll say that too. And THAT has nothing to do with whether or not I like Sawyer because, frankly, I would still think Jack is an arrogant, irritating pain in the butt even if there had never been a Sawyer on this show. One thing has nothing to do with the other. I wish some people could just GET that, you know.
Oh...my...god, people. Let...it...go.
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People for crying out loud. I am about to start BANNING people if they don't adhere to the rules here.
Anything bashing any other poster will be deleted, anything that I deem over bashing a character will be deleted.
If you have a problem with the way I run the site, email me. Do NOT do this in the comments thread.
This really is the FINAL warning.
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Dude, you spelled Sawyer's name wrong in the headline. lol
lol
Ooppps :) Well spotted Crystal :)
Fixed.